10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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I still think that the fact that u can form a 25 man and have easier time killing bosses is reward enough for the current mechanics of 25s, and the fact that it also shows a degree of leadership to be one of the top ranked raiding guilds in 25s.

i just think if blizz wants to make it more worthwhile to do 25s then they should make it a little harder or else no one will want to do 10s when u can get carried thro a 25 and get uber gear with no skill. then carrying around a title or gear that shows that would b waaay more prestigious.

and dont get me started on the state of LFR and Heroics being too easy....has anyone seen the debuffs from wiping in LFR? (in the ptr patch notes)lol they are actually gonna reward people for not doing any research and after they have wasted all the resources of putting in an ingame guide cmon blizz really....OMGosh
xcuse me wile i find the thread to complain about that lol
90 Pandaren Monk
7680
Moo.

Random chance +6 ilevel bonuses seem pretty boring and really won't have any effect on boosting 25man raids.

In my opinion you need to look at raid infrastructure. The problem 25man raids have is when they can't fill composition wise. A 25man raid needs to keep a larger bench than a 10man guild.

So in this case look outside the box and find ways to make it easier coordination wise for 25man raid groups.

For instance:

Make a 25man baseline raid 2 tanks, 6 healers and 17 dps.

Say a couple healers are out, instead of forcing the 25man raid to carry three or four benched healers on a regular basis, allow them to five-heal the encounter.

2 tanks, 5 healers and 18 dps. But give the raid a +10% bonus to healing taken.

Say a lot of dps are out but all the healers are on. Let the raid do that.

2 tanks, 7 healers and 16 dps. Give the raid a +5% damage bonus.


This helps the 25man raid groups work around trying to keep their roster viable to raid with without having to have such a large bench.


Doing this would be a train wreck for those that want to rank. It wouldn't be a game of skill any more it would be a matter of how many healers you can stack to make enrage timer so that everyone ranks. (8 healers = 10% damage increase) or vise versa (19 dps = 20% healing increase) The ranking boards would be drastically unbalanced and unfair to those that like to see their name high up on the boards.
90 Undead Warlock
14755
disagree - i enjoy for seeing content AND getting geared and why not? im not a competitive raider so why would any casual raider care wat the guild next door (be it 10 or 25) is doing? im more focused on me & wat i can accomplish :)
90 Worgen Hunter
13120
02/26/2013 12:37 PMPosted by Hyjinx
The reason imo you don't see top rated guilds doing 25 mans is the logistics of forming that many humans with skill enough to compete at the level it takes at the beging of content. you just don't trip over uber geared players at that time. but once content has become played by more n more people, lots easier to get 10-15 uber geared people n carry the rest thro 25. As the mechanics are with 10vs25 Identical , its merely a matter of having the people who are willing to commit the time and have skill to down bosses before anyone else and not a matter of if 10 and 25s are harder content wise.


Uh, you do see top rated guilds doing 25s. In fact, top ranked is where you find the most 25 man guilds.

Umm..34 out of the top 40 guilds in the world are 25's. Better check ur facts Hyjinx
90 Worgen Hunter
13120
I have played this game for 7 years so I have seen nearly all of the changes from the beginning. I guess I am a more casual player that can only devote a certain amount of time to the game as REAL life does have to take precedence. The LFR concept was a good one as many of us do not have time to raid seriously but still want to see the content. LFR allows for that. I felt that drops in Cataclysm were about right. It might have taken awhile but you could equip after a fashion and get fairly decent gear to allow you to compete in a 10 man normal.

To a Hunter like myself the weapon is the most important. Dropping a pole arm was a reasonable idea but making the LFR ranged so difficult to get is one of the more stupid ideas that Blizzard has had. SO WHAT if every hunter has the LFR bow or gun- make it easier to get and more players might be interested in normal raiding to upgrade. I have played in LFR from the time that my gear qualified. I have extra rolled every time the bow or gun drop was available. I still don't have a purple gun and after all this time that is not only discouraging but unsatisfactory for me as a player and a source of revenue for Blizzard.

The fact that the last bow or gun I don't remember went for 120,000G is really sad and indicative of the stupidity of the current situation. If this issue is not resolved in the forthcoming patch, Blizzard will not see me for a 8th year. Sometimes the only thing big companies can "hear" is the sound of money leaving their revenue stream. I am, at this point, seriously disappointed in the game.

Damn, 10 TES and 24 MV LFR runs, yeh the RNG really has screwed u over. But, with your ilvl you rly should be doing reg more than you have. Just sayin.
90 Blood Elf Warrior
10965
That's stupid to have a higher chance in 25s when you already have a higher margin for error in 25s. It should have a higher drop chance in 10s.
100 Pandaren Shaman
14165
I don't see why you would give 25 mans an advantage over 10s.... for starters 10 mans are harder. They have the same mechanics and often have to use the same number of people to complete said mechanics...(Hagara in Dragon Soul still had the same number of ice beams but 10 mans had only 10 ppl to soak and exchange beams while 25 mans had 25 ppl to do it) 25 man raids are so 10 good players can carry the other 15 bads.... and blizzard is rewarding that.... should be equal drop rates for everyone.
90 Human Warlock
11015
02/27/2013 07:24 AMPosted by Chinadol
I don't see why you would give 25 mans an advantage over 10s.... for starters 10 mans are harder. They have the same mechanics and often have to use the same number of people to complete said mechanics...(Hagara in Dragon Soul still had the same number of ice beams but 10 mans had only 10 ppl to soak and exchange beams while 25 mans had 25 ppl to do it) 25 man raids are so 10 good players can carry the other 15 bads.... and blizzard is rewarding that.... should be equal drop rates for everyone.


QFT. There are already huge incentives to doing 25 mans, they are at least twice as easy for most encounters. Having 2.5 as many major raid cooldowns, more options to execute mechanics, being able to just carry a sizeable portion of people who can basically just stand there and dps.

Plus more importantly, 25 mans already drop more loot per person. 6 drops for 25 people vs 2 drops for 10 people = much higher rate for gearing as it is.
100 Tauren Druid
20625
02/27/2013 08:50 AMPosted by Fordfiesta
they are at least twice as easy for most encounters.


No they are not. Please stop spreading that stupid misinformation. 25 man is hard, or do you think having 3 dogs up on stone guard is harder than having all 4 up every week?

25 mans have more logistics to solve, more people to mess up, more people to gear, a larger bench which also has to be geared etc.

The thunderforged idea is terrible and should never be implemented not because of 10 man but because it'll just cause loot drama.

Plus more importantly, 25 mans already drop more loot per person. 6 drops for 25 people vs 2 drops for 10 people = much higher rate for gearing as it is.


Yes because you can't break down tier tokens into 2 halves. You get 1 tier token per 10 people in the raid. 25 mans have an extra 5 though so that translates into 3 tier tokens.
90 Draenei Priest
17345
02/26/2013 11:41 PMPosted by Ghostlydiva
That's stupid to have a higher chance in 25s when you already have a higher margin for error in 25s. It should have a higher drop chance in 10s.


This makes no sense at all.

02/27/2013 07:24 AMPosted by Chinadol
I don't see why you would give 25 mans an advantage over 10s.... for starters 10 mans are harder. They have the same mechanics and often have to use the same number of people to complete said mechanics...(Hagara in Dragon Soul still had the same number of ice beams but 10 mans had only 10 ppl to soak and exchange beams while 25 mans had 25 ppl to do it) 25 man raids are so 10 good players can carry the other 15 bads.... and blizzard is rewarding that.... should be equal drop rates for everyone.


The notion that a 25 Man team can be made up of a few good players who carry the majority is just, well...ignorant. It would be feasible to "carry" 1-2 lower performing players...MAYBE...but in general they all have to know what's going on just like in a 10 Man.

QFT. There are already huge incentives to doing 25 mans, they are at least twice as easy for most encounters. Having 2.5 as many major raid cooldowns, more options to execute mechanics, being able to just carry a sizeable portion of people who can basically just stand there and dps.

Plus more importantly, 25 mans already drop more loot per person. 6 drops for 25 people vs 2 drops for 10 people = much higher rate for gearing as it is.


There really aren't any "huge" incentives to doing 25 Mans. If there were no one would do 10's, they would make no sense. If there were 25 Man teams wouldn't be falling apart left and right.

It is true that there is more "loot per player" in a 25 Man than in a 10 Man, but they still get "less loot".

In a 10 Man there may only be 2 drops but there are more than likely only 1-2 players in the entire team that can use any particular drop meaning...When you see a drop for your class/spec/character it is more than likely going to end up in your hands. So, you only have to see an item drop once, maybe twice.

In a 25 Man there are 6 drops to 25 players. There are also more than likely 4-5 players who can use any one item which means you may have to see that item upwards of 4 times in order for all of the players in the team to get a chance to get the item.

---------------------

I am a huge advocate of 10 Man Raiding myself as it is my preferred raid size. But there are many, many players who prefer 25 Man Raiding and don't feel there is enough reward for the risk involved.

Encounters for both raid sizes have been "normalized" to an extent, but there are still some things that are "harder" in 10 Man and some things that are "harder" in 25. Neither size has a difficulty factor that overwhelmingly swings one way or the other. Tuning of encounters is quite often more difficult that we think leaving things that have to be different between the two sizes.

But this is really not the issue for 25 Man raiders who can't find 25 Man teams or who's 25 Man teams are falling apart.

The issue is that the logistical risk in maintaining a 25 Man roster is significantly more difficult than maintaining a 10 Man roster.

There is always higher risk that players will not show and that alternate raiders, fill-ins or PuG's will be needed. There is always the risk of keeping a larger roster overall to accommodate attendance issues. There is always the risk of "rotations" irritating raiders, especially for more "casual" groups who don't fully understand the need for a roster of 35+ players and the need to keep all of that roster equally experienced and geared.

There are more players to manage meaning more chances for someone to screw up. There are more players in the space available for the encounter to happen meaning less area to spread out when needed, less room for players to "share" things that help or harm the raid, etc.

The logistical difficulty of scheduling and maintaining a 25 Man roster is much, much greater than that of a 10 Man roster.

The "risk vs. reward" factor is much greater in 10 Man Raiding than in 25 Man Raiding currently. This is what Blizzard is attempting to "fix".
Edited by Malorey on 2/27/2013 9:15 AM PST
100 Dwarf Warrior
17195
02/26/2013 08:45 AMPosted by Awkwardz
I am completely dumbfounded that Blizzard is going forward with this when nearly all 25man guild leaders think this is a bad change due to the lack of actual incentive it brings along with the additional administrative costs.


"Hey, 25's seem to be suffering. What should we do?"

"Make the officers of those guilds put in MORE effort and have to deal with MORE bull!@#$!"

"Great work Tim, have a promotion."

This is pretty much what we're facing. Thunderforged loot does exactly the opposite of its stated design intent, as summarized in the OP.

02/26/2013 10:56 AMPosted by Sistumsgo
10 man is harder cuz you cant have 5-10 noobs getting carried! you can only carry 1 bad dps in 10 man, no heals, no tanks

Err, I can only assume you're referring to normal modes. There is no slack during heroic progression. More importantly, there are 15 additional points of failure that can happen for pass-fail mechanics. And this is on top of the added organizational complexity and pain of sustainin a successful 25 man progression guild (i.e. the REASON Paragon gave for dropping down to 10s).

If Blizzard was truly serious about addressing this issue, they would introduce to NA the loot model they currently have implemented in Asia as a starting point. But, as I've stated elsewhere, I don't believe they are sincere. To let two entire expansions come and go under this paradigm while simultaneously claiming that they understand the "path of least resistance blah blah Mechanar" argument doesn't add up.

At this point, actions speak louder than words. They're choking out the format and will likely consolidate into one size at some point down the road. It makes sense from a cost perspective for what is a mature product in 'sustain' mode. I'm not sure what that size will be, but I'm fairly certain it needs to be larger than 10 man -- supporting a size that has fewer spots than there are classes (forget specs) in the game was poor planning on their part, just from a tuning/balancing/representation perspective alone.
90 Orc Death Knight
9700
The overall concept of adding thunderforged weapons is a great idea. However haveing any system that pretty well gaurantees higher ilvl in the end for 25 man raids is rediculous. This really punishes those on low pop servers. Many of us on low pop servers have been beging for a low pop server merger. It is bad enough that most of the time we will never see end game material (heroic mode bosses) just because we have to constantly do not have enough players to do much,but to add a system that punishes us further is a HUGE slap in the face. Many of us are still on low pop servers because our friends are there or we can't afford to transfer all our toons we have spent years on. As of right now 25 man raids do have 2 things going for them. 1 is the 25 mans have always been easier than 10 mans for the simple fact that you can have a handful of mistakes that kill off one or two players and youll still win. 2 more pieces of loot drop for 25 man per boss, this may not seem like much just because it compensates for the number of players but it does mean you have a better chance for the item you actually want to drop. With that being said 25 man has enough benefits. Stop punishing all the guilds that have been trying for so long to be 25 man but are stuck on servers that it will never happen again on.

Also on a side note the 13th boss idea that you only get to see if you have beaten the raid on heroic is BS. That is a huge slap in the face to everyone that plays this game for the lore. Atleast make it available on normal with maybe some attunement needs.
90 Orc Death Knight
9700
Response to Malorey's Post
First as I have stated before there are several HUGE reasons to doing 25's over 10's more loot to raider ratio, better chance for the gear YOU want to drop (chance of wining it may be a little lower) , and yes much easier difficulty wise. I have always been a guild leader. I have also led both 10 man and 25 man guilds. I can personally vouche for the fact that 10 man is by far easier. Yes everyone still SHOULD be pulling thier own weight, however thats not always the case. Also 25 man is a lot easier to cover up the minor mistakes (stood in something a second longer, 2 ppl got hit with one attack instead of 1) and you still have a chance to clear the boss if you have a person dc mid fight or die mid fight. 10 man progression if someone dies its usually over you WILL NOT meet the timers unless the boss is on farm status. Also you can cover up the little mistakes in 25 man because of sheer number of heals vs raiders 25man 6 to 7 heals 10 man 2 to 3 heals.

Also in my opinion the biggest reason why 25 man is SO much easier is because if you are at the status of 25 man recruiting is usually easier and you usually have a larger pool of competent players to choose from, so if 1 or 2 players don't show up you still can raid. 10 mans on the other hand usually you barely have enough players to fill the spots in the raid 1 doesn't show you don't get to do progression anymore your down to farm stuff.

Now on the other hand the one perk to only doing 10 man raids, it is a lot easier to fine 10 compitent players who know the fights and how to play thier class than it is to find 25.
90 Draenei Priest
17345
Response to Malorey's Post
First as I have stated before there are several HUGE reasons to doing 25's over 10's more loot to raider ratio, better chance for the gear YOU want to drop (chance of wining it may be a little lower) , and yes much easier difficulty wise. I have always been a guild leader. I have also led both 10 man and 25 man guilds. I can personally vouche for the fact that 10 man is by far easier. Yes everyone still SHOULD be pulling thier own weight, however thats not always the case. Also 25 man is a lot easier to cover up the minor mistakes (stood in something a second longer, 2 ppl got hit with one attack instead of 1) and you still have a chance to clear the boss if you have a person dc mid fight or die mid fight. 10 man progression if someone dies its usually over you WILL NOT meet the timers unless the boss is on farm status. Also you can cover up the little mistakes in 25 man because of sheer number of heals vs raiders 25man 6 to 7 heals 10 man 2 to 3 heals.

Also in my opinion the biggest reason why 25 man is SO much easier is because if you are at the status of 25 man recruiting is usually easier and you usually have a larger pool of competent players to choose from, so if 1 or 2 players don't show up you still can raid. 10 mans on the other hand usually you barely have enough players to fill the spots in the raid 1 doesn't show you don't get to do progression anymore your down to farm stuff.

Now on the other hand the one perk to only doing 10 man raids, it is a lot easier to fine 10 compitent players who know the fights and how to play thier class than it is to find 25.


I am not going to attempt to debate your way of thinking. It would be like debating "pro-choice" with a "pro-lifer"...the argument is different and there is never a resolution. But I digress...

Regardless of whether or not YOU believe there are some HUGE incentives for 25 Man raiding the people who do the 25 Man raiding are almost universally in disagreement...Hence the rapid decline of that size of raid.

I have raided both sizes also. I have led both sizes. I have led a guild for over 6 years. I, personally, prefer 10 Man teams. I find them more rewarding, more team oriented and more fun.

Someone who prefers 25 Man teams feels just as strongly about their raid size as I do about mine.

The difference is...Their raid size is declining at such a rapid rate that many are afraid it may be too late to save them. The evidence of this is all over these forums and Fansites alike. Guilds like Dream Paragon, who were the #1-#3 World Guild for years, have chosen to downsize to 10 Man raiding because the "risk vs. reward" is just not enough to overcome the administrative and logistical nightmare that 25 Man raiding has become coupled with the lack of incentive to do it.

Your argument may be valid to YOU. But it is not valid to 25 Man Raiders.

I'd really like you to list these HUGE incentives because the ones in your post don't hold water to most 25 Man Raiders and, if they bothered to take the time, they could pick them apart fairly easily, as could I.
Edited by Malorey on 2/27/2013 12:12 PM PST
90 Orc Shaman
13750
02/26/2013 05:53 PMPosted by Soarineagle


Uh, you do see top rated guilds doing 25s. In fact, top ranked is where you find the most 25 man guilds.

Umm..34 out of the top 40 guilds in the world are 25's. Better check ur facts Hyjinx


Check my facts? What you said backs me up.
90 Troll Shaman
11145
No. Please no. LFR is a way to see content, not get geared.


LFR is a way to get geared if your schedule doesn't permit scheduled guild raiding.
(working 12-9 this week, half 12-9 and 10-7 next., unknown own after that.)
90 Worgen Warrior
13950
I honestly don't see a lot of this "complaining" improving anything involving 25mans. That is if Blizzard even reads what the majority has said in this thread. Not that some of you haven't made valid and insightful points. It is just that there is a lot of back and forth arguing from players who are less informed than others.

In terms of the Thunderforged items improving 25man raiding, it won't. Aside from the obvious fact that better gear is always great for players who enjoy decking themselves out in the absolute best. Even with the drop rate being slightly higher on 25 than on 10 it won't have much of an impact. I'm not saying there should be some additional reward for doing 25s vs 10s, I'm just stating facts here from past experience.

I presently lead the guild <Of Hells Design> and have lead other guilds in the past. We aren't hardcore by any means, we aren't casual either. I lost interest in being hardcore after BC due to stress. Anyway, having switched from 10man in Cata to 25man in MOP it has been very very difficult. Just as it should be since recruiting 20+ people and making sure they are consistent is a feat in and of itself. We did a lot of 25man raiding prior to Christmas and some right after New Years. We had a relatively stable roster before and after the holidays and were enjoying the benefits of seeing more gear drop. It was also more fun to kill bosses with a larger group setting that wasn't noob LFR. But since then we've had to break down into 10mans just to keep people raiding until we can fix our roster. Although there were a few fights where I didn't feel tuning was as even as it could have been for 25man compared to 10man (yes I have done both for much of 5.0 content) which is just minor. The largest problem that we have encountered is players being reliable and staying interested in the game. Which is not a fault of being 25man by any means, it is a fault of how large the changes have been from Cata to MOP in terms of gearing up and rep grinding. Now this may not be 100% hands down the underlying reason why people have quit the game. More often than not, the players I've heard of quitting or have seen quitting on my realm or even real id seem to have lost interest due to this. It has been much more time consuming, stressful (in some respects), discouraging, etc. Sure it may not feel like such to the majority of the player base but at the same time there is some merit to this. To be fair, this could also be the "types" of players we've recruited for this expansion. As for myself I've enjoyed the more difficult acquisition of gear and reputation. It is a nice change of pace from just instance farming with a tabbard and then buying gear with gold and then a few pieces with JP/VP. Which again, my personal view may not be held by everyone.

Overall I think that with large changes made with MOP and the static difficulty of maintaining a 25man raid roster has help to continue the decline of this raid group setting. I wish I could think of some ways to improve the state that it is in, I would really like to see 25mans continue and not die off. I can understand how this will be very difficult for developers to tackle seeing as trying to be fair to both 10man and 25man is extremely difficult as it is.

In summary, these are just a few of my opinions and what I've seen over my 8 years of playing WOW from a serious PVE stand point. I hope to see some sort of changes in the future that may help the 25man raid group setting as well as being as fair as possible to 10mans. Only time will tell :D
90 Worgen Hunter
13120

Umm..34 out of the top 40 guilds in the world are 25's. Better check ur facts Hyjinx


Check my facts? What you said backs me up.

That one was my bad..lol...I meant to say that to Reolduke or w/e his name was. I thought it was ur post by mistake.
100 Human Warrior
19610
01/23/2013 09:12 AMPosted by Schwarzkopf
I'm not sure how I feel about even more rng being added to loot tables. I already haven't seen a weapon from empress or tsulong in 9 kills/coins, but now I have to hope the item to drop and for it to be thunderforgerd?


I'm still waiting for a sha touched weapon after 36 rolls in ToES (2 bosses, 2 chances per boss per week, 8 weeks).

RNG is RNG, but jeez it sucks.


I hear ya. I have 14 kills on Sha of Fear LFR, with a coin everytime. That's 28 rolls and no Sha Touched weapon. I've had the legendary gem for nearly 2 months now. Oh well, RNG sucks sometimes.
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