Confused by Eminence nerf

90 Blood Elf Priest
10625
Any monks have any insight? Seems to me that Eminence was underpowered if anything. Monks aren't exactly melee healing much as it is.

On the plus side, that means taking away 50% of it isn't much of a nerf...but it seems to me that it's going even farther away from the promised monk vision.
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90 Draenei Mage
16695
Someone didn't read the rest of the patch notes. With the damage ability buffs with muscle memory agains the nerfs it's a net of about 10 to 15 percent throughput buff. Now if we can only reduce the cost of jab and the other instant chi builders by 15 percent of the hotfix nerf then we will be back in business
Edited by Akrisa on 1/23/2013 1:36 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10625
Oh, ok. Wall of green text makes sleepy kaels dizzy.
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90 Draenei Mage
16695
About the only true nerf to this is the healing value of xuen but it's still early Ptr
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90 Pandaren Priest
19150
Has the ranged been increased? I felt it was fair to make atonement and eminence share the same range.
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90 Human Monk
10960
Someone didn't read the rest of the patch notes. With the damage ability buffs with muscle memory agains the nerfs it's a net of about 10 to 15 percent throughput buff. Now if we can only reduce the cost of jab and the other instant chi builders by 15 percent of the hotfix nerf then we will be back in business


Unless I'm missing something, this is a huge nerf to eminence healing. Sure, you may get a 200% increase to your abilities, but that's only AFTER you use a jab and it's only on a single ability.
Edited by Superhero on 1/23/2013 2:37 PM PST
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Blood Elf Paladin
HC
11385
01/23/2013 02:25 PMPosted by Kerias
Has the ranged been increased? I felt it was fair to make atonement and eminence share the same range.


No, but as far as I can see it seems as though they're trying to make the Eminence part of MW Healing more about burst healing with the buffs to the damaging abilities.

Sort of makes sense though with the crazy costs of Jab/Melee abilities...

Hm. I like it.
Edited by Practical on 1/23/2013 2:40 PM PST
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90 Human Monk
10960
01/23/2013 02:38 PMPosted by Practical
Hm. I like it.


By putting so much more emphasis on Jab, aren't they just creating the same problem they had/have with Renewing Mists in that the entire setup revolves around it?

Eminence based healing is just going to be incredibly weak unless you use Jab every other hit.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
7725
It's a huge buff, we have incentive to use Tiger Palm now for pure throughput, which in turn gives us cheaper to free surging mists, our flash heal equivalent. Basically they want us to be actually using abilities instead of Keeping up 2 stacks of Blackout Kick Buff and TP and autoattacking.
Edited by Kungfuwaifu on 1/23/2013 2:52 PM PST
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Blood Elf Paladin
HC
11385
By putting so much more emphasis on Jab, aren't they just creating the same problem they had/have with Renewing Mists in that the entire setup revolves around it?

Eminence based healing is just going to be incredibly weak unless you use Jab every other hit.


Well, I think it's best to question the design intent when you're asking that question.

Doesn't it make sense that a Monk should be jabbing a lot if they're in melee? It makes sense for the monk class to go Jab-Jab-Jab-Tiger Palm-Jab-Blackout Kick.

However, the one thing that'll probably throttle it being overly used is how cost expensive Fistweaving is.

What I think - and mind you, this is merely what I think/know based on their design intent - is that they want Eminence to be on 'big costs, big healing,' but rewarding if executed correctly.

You have to Jab for higher throughput on Tiger Palm, but will charge your stacks for Surging Mists, and still give you free healing through Eminence.

I dunno, seems interesting to me.
Edited by Practical on 1/23/2013 2:55 PM PST
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90 Draenei Mage
16695
Depends if they reduce the cost of our mana instant chi costs or if the natural progression of gear w/ spirit will make it feel better with Ilvl 520+ gear for both styles of monk healing. Like I said early PTR and things are always subject to change but for both styles I would kinda like to see a reduced cost in the chi generators.
Edited by Akrisa on 1/23/2013 3:06 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Monk
7725
It would seem more like they want to make melee single target healing comparable to the Soothing+Enveloping+Surging toolset, since melee single target healing currently has no equivalent of a Soothing+Enveloping mist cast.
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90 Human Monk
10960
Well, I think it's best to question the design intent when you're asking that question.

Doesn't it make sense that a Monk should be jabbing a lot if they're in melee? It makes sense for the monk class to go Jab-Jab-Jab-Tiger Palm-Jab-Blackout Kick.


It would be more like Jab->Tiger Palm->Jab->Blackout Kick->Jab->Tiger Palm->Jab->Renewing Mists->Blackout Kick->Jab->Tiger Palm.

In other words, every other hit would need to be a jab in order to buff the next ability. If their isn't a jab in between, then you don't get the 200% increase. I dunno, that just seems like we'll either fall into a straight rotation where we basically ignore the raid and have all of our healing be from eminence smart heals or it'll be a quick random burst heal.

Relying on Tiger Palm stacks to truly cut your mana costs is already flawed just because of the duration of the buff. You almost have to be primarily focusing on using Tiger Palm consistently just to get to the point you can get a free heal. If I have to switch off of fistweaving for any reason, I'm typically losing the buff.

01/23/2013 02:52 PMPosted by Practical
What I think - and mind you, this is merely what I think/know based on their design intent - is that they want Eminence to be on 'big costs, big healing,' but rewarding if executed correctly.


The issue I would see is that it's not only big costs mana-wise, but also big costs from a time/gcd aspect. It's almost like to make this effective, you have to spend a significant amount of your time just keeping up buffs. On top of that, your big aoe burst healing from core healing spells like Uplift are crossing paths with your ability to utilize eminence healing. You keep your throughput going through using Chi but when you need the bigger burst from Uplift, you don't have the Chi.

Maybe I could see this working out better if we had another way to generate Chi. As it stands, it's just screaming that our playstyle will be to tunnelvision fistweaving with every other gcd being Jab. All aspects of our gearing will be to just get to a point where we can sustain it longer and longer with Crit/Spirit builds.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11640
Concerned that it'll end up with Mistweavers contributing too much damage to fights, but I'll be the first to mention I have no real concept of how much a damage increase these changes represent, nor how much longevity you'd have (mana-wise) if you pushed your dps under these changes.
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90 Goblin Warlock
7555
01/23/2013 02:45 PMPosted by Superhero
Eminence based healing is just going to be incredibly weak unless you use Jab every other hit.


It's not that big of a deal when you remember (melee) Eminence healing is already just Jab>Palm ad infinitum with breaks to keep up SZ and ReM (or was before the nerfs made it so difficult to sustain).
Edited by Leviathan on 1/23/2013 4:20 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Monk
17050
01/23/2013 03:57 PMPosted by Meditation
Concerned that it'll end up with Mistweavers contributing too much damage to fights, but I'll be the first to mention I have no real concept of how much a damage increase these changes represent, nor how much longevity you'd have (mana-wise) if you pushed your dps under these changes.


Disc \ Holy priests can currently do more damage than monks, so.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11640
01/23/2013 04:44 PMPosted by Mist
Concerned that it'll end up with Mistweavers contributing too much damage to fights, but I'll be the first to mention I have no real concept of how much a damage increase these changes represent, nor how much longevity you'd have (mana-wise) if you pushed your dps under these changes.


Disc \ Holy priests can currently do more damage than monks, so.


Yep, they do, but if Mistweaver damage is being buffed by enough that it'll be a buff to Eminence healing even with the 50% nerf to the dps-to-healing conversion...

However, like I say - it's not as though I'm in-the-know about what the numbers actually look like in combat.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
17050
The point of the change is to make fistweaving more appealing as a healing style overall without buffing it too hard. the 50% nerf is to offset how big of a buff to damage we're getting.

It still comes out to a pretty huge gain, while making our dps spells stronger \ more meaningful. Currently, mistweavers just.. don't fill any specific niche. DPS healing was supposed to be that niche and they've failed on that so far, honestly.
Edited by Mist on 1/23/2013 8:28 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
11640
01/23/2013 08:27 PMPosted by Mist
they've failed on that so far, honestly.


agreed on that point.
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90 Pandaren Monk
13165
I'm interested to test this out. I'd like to be using more of my toolkit again, and i am going to like the DPS boost regardless. Maybe I'll even be able to take out Blat soon.

I'm a bit worried about breaking CC by accident while I get used to BoK cleaving, but at least Tiger'll apparently be boosted enough so that I won't notice the difference after some practice, and wanting to use Jab>TP>Jab>TP will be a bit more fun than Jabjabjabjab>BokBok I hope. Plus, BoK cleaves will help a lot for dailies and extra DPS when needed.

The mana cost of doing all that still concerns me a bit, and I feel like MW will still be quite lacking at ranged/single target healing, but these buffs weren't meant to address that so I'll mess around with this for now.
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