Confused by Eminence nerf

90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
This makes me interested in leveling my Monk again. DPS healing should definitely be something MW excel at, moreso than Priests in my opinion. They lack utility/identity otherwise.
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90 Pandaren Monk
3160
This is an interesting change. Hope it works out for the better.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7565
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I'm reading the changes is Tiger Palm is having its base damage increased by 100%, and the Eminence healing cut by 50%. Effectively a net 0. Because if my TP currently does 15,325 damage, and i get 50% eminence from me and 50% from statue...as long as both Eminence heals land total healing was 15,325. So increase the TP by 100% gives me a 30,650, but I only get 25% Eminence heals, I still end up with a 15,325 heal. Effectively the healing itself stays the same so for the same mana as I spend now (1jab) I get twice the damage and the same amount of healing. But with proper use of Muscle Memory you'd increase the damage of said TP by 200% more, you'd always have a net increase in the Eminence healing because more damage = more healing.

Without Muscle Memory on your Blackout Kick on a single target, the eminence healing would be a net loss though. You'd either need to ALWAYS have muscle memory before a blackout kick...or you'd need to hit your target and cleave AT LEAST 2 more (3 total targets hit). Without muscle memory, hitting 3 total targets (of a possible 5 if i'm reading that correctly, target +4 others) would give you a net 0 return, again for the same mana as you spend now.

As someone who primarily jabs for Chi, I can look at this in no other way than a straight buff, both to damage and to Eminence healing (bigger buff to damage, but still a buff to healing). Since I'll almost always have that muscle memory buff. The way the tooltip reads for muscle memory it reminds me of the way our mastery for Windwalker works currently. After a jab my next TP or BoK would do 200% more damage, it doesnt say that it wears off if you dont use a TP or BoK after a jab; like if you jab then ReM to keep that on cooldown, your BoK would still carry the 200% buff.

Hopefully i'm understanding that correctly...
Edited by Mokosoo on 1/24/2013 6:29 AM PST
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Blood Elf Paladin
HC
11980
01/23/2013 03:51 PMPosted by Superhero
It would be more like Jab->Tiger Palm->Jab->Blackout Kick->Jab->Tiger Palm->Jab->Renewing Mists->Blackout Kick->Jab->Tiger Palm.


The thing about that though is you'd never actually do that in succession with each other unless you needed that much healing.

The tempo, though, at which you described looks about right to me. Makes sense for there to be a Jab as a "filler" in between other abilities. Feels Monk-ish.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
14585
01/24/2013 02:07 AMPosted by Mokosoo
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I'm reading the changes is Tiger Palm is having its base damage increased by 100%, and the Eminence healing cut by 50%. Effectively a net 0. Because if my TP currently does 15,325 damage, and i get 50% eminence from me and 50% from statue...as long as both Eminence heals land total healing was 15,325. So increase the TP by 100% gives me a 30,650, but I only get 25% Eminence heals, I still end up with a 15,325 heal.


Almost, Eminence heals are actually 60% of damage done (currently) because of the 20% increase to healing provided by being in Stance of the Wise Serpent. Check it yourself. When fighting a random mob, hit BoK, and watch how much damage you do with it, I can guarentee that the Eminence healing you recieve will be equal to 60% of the damage dealt... :)

As for the 'new' rotation, it seems to me as though you'll do better by not mindlessly attacking every GCD, but rather only using your TP/BOK when someone actually needs heals. Like a normal healer would not just spam Heal, but would rather cast it only when it will actually heal someone. Makes mana-management a little better, and helps create a Flash Heal/Heal/Greater Heal style of play while DPSing. Instead of a steady trickle of Eminence heals that mostly become over-heal, you'd have actual 'heals' you can use when DPSing.

Also, by making BoK into a cleave, it helps fills our AOE DPS Chi-dump role that the level 30 talent used to fill. Fine by me. :)
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90 Human Monk
11325
It would be more like Jab->Tiger Palm->Jab->Blackout Kick->Jab->Tiger Palm->Jab->Renewing Mists->Blackout Kick->Jab->Tiger Palm.


The thing about that though is you'd never actually do that in succession with each other unless you needed that much healing.

The tempo, though, at which you described looks about right to me. Makes sense for there to be a Jab as a "filler" in between other abilities. Feels Monk-ish.


It may feel monk-ish but it sure as hell doesn't feel like I'm playing a healer class. That right there is a DPS rotation. Hell, that is on par with the ret paladin rotation and crusader strike.

On top of that, and this is what I mentioned earlier which Mokosoo pointed out as well, BoK is a net loss of healing unless you use Jab before it or hit 4 targets (which is very rare in any raid encounter). So, for the same thing we are doing right now, we'll heal for half as much unless we jump through extra hoops.

The Tiger Palm buff IS very interesting but it's like they are trying to get it to fill the role of the cheap efficient heal without actually being cheap. 2 GCD's and a Jab's worth of mana cost to put out a heal will be about on par with out classes efficient heal. It will try to fill that role of filler in healing but it doesn't replace that missing cheap efficient heal that is causing a hole in the monk arsenal.

Honestly, I want monk healing to be primarily about casting heals while doing melee dps rather than play a DPS class that has a side effect of healing.

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not targeting you (Practical) with this post, I'm more just answering a good question that you posed.
Edited by Superhero on 1/24/2013 8:10 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12645
It would be interesting if they gave you an off-GCD way to 'focus' your Eminence on a specific target (with increased healing, or perhaps splash to nearby targets). Then you could have a way of playing that involves a melee rotation, without losing what makes healing healing.
Edited by Kaels on 1/24/2013 8:27 AM PST
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90 Dwarf Shaman
14585
01/24/2013 08:09 AMPosted by Superhero
The Tiger Palm buff IS very interesting but it's like they are trying to get it to fill the role of the cheap efficient heal without actually being cheap. 2 GCD's and a Jab's worth of mana cost to put out a heal will be about on par with out classes efficient heal. It will try to fill that role of filler in healing but it doesn't replace that missing cheap efficient heal that is causing a hole in the monk arsenal.


Until people fully test how much damage TP does in this situation, and therefore how much healing, you can't look at TP by itself as our 'efficient' heal.

Personally, I see it as Jab+Auto-attacks are our efficient, spam heals. They're always happening regardless of whatever else we're casting while DPSing, so they'd be most equivalent to the pre-MOP Healing Stream Totem (though in smart heal form). They're not going to make-or-break an encounter, but they help buoy up whoever is lowest health.

I see the new TP as our Riptide or Swiftmend, very potent, and capable of doing a nice chunk of healing to a single target, but not enough to keep a tank alive under a heavy beat-down. Similarly, BoK would serve the same function when fighting a group that you can cleave. ie; Your basic filler heal that you want to hit as often as possible, but is by no means your strongest heal.

Finally, this brings me to Surging Mist (with Vital Mists x5). This would be our Greater Heal/Flash Heal equivalent. A big BOMB of a heal that you can let loose when absolutely needed. While you could hit it as soon as you get to 5 stacks (making it more Flash Heal equiv.), if you instead stop hitting Jab/TP until the Surging Mist won't over-heal for 80% of it's power, your efficiency goes way up (making it more Greater Heal equiv.).

Then again, I'm not on PTR to test out the relative power of each skill with the buffs. So while I may be wrong, this does seem to be the direct they want us to go imo.
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90 Pandaren Monk
9545
As far as spamming jab we already do this as a fistweaver. How short is this muscle memory buff? Is it consumed by blackout or tiger palm? I am not on the Ptr atm.

Personally I love that melee healing is becoming a more viable option for healing
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Blood Elf Paladin
HC
11980
01/24/2013 08:09 AMPosted by Superhero
Honestly, I want monk healing to be primarily about casting heals while doing melee dps rather than play a DPS class that has a side effect of healing.


Their design intent with Monks were that players had the ability to chose between two different playstyles: Mistweaving and Fistweaving/Meleeweaving. Both which are viable - but at times would be a good idea for you to lean on one or the other for a specific fight. Good players have of course found a way to take advantage of both playstyles (which in turn has put Blizzard in a position to make "Eminence Healing" a niche thing).

That said, when we look at the costs of Mistweaver Melee abilities, we understand that they are pretty high mana costs. What shares that same trait? High-healing abilities.

As I said, I don't think they intend for this to be something that you should do regularly - but in a time that high healing is needed. Your arguments of there being too many GCD's in order to reach that goal is valid; But then again these changes are on the PTR and are subject to change at any time.

01/24/2013 08:09 AMPosted by Superhero
Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not targeting you (Practical) with this post, I'm more just answering a good question that you posed.


Oh I know. You didn't seem like you were being a jerk. :)
________________________________________________
Healing Forum MVP
AKA. Practical
Edited by Practical on 1/24/2013 5:27 PM PST
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90 Human Monk
11325
Finally, this brings me to Surging Mist (with Vital Mists x5). This would be our Greater Heal/Flash Heal equivalent. A big BOMB of a heal that you can let loose when absolutely needed. While you could hit it as soon as you get to 5 stacks (making it more Flash Heal equiv.), if you instead stop hitting Jab/TP until the Surging Mist won't over-heal for 80% of it's power, your efficiency goes way up (making it more Greater Heal equiv.).


I think Vital Mist stacks taking 5 casts to max out is way too much. By comparison, you have something like the Paladin Judgement stacking both an increased potency and reduced mana cost and it only requiring 3 stacks to become "free". Or even something like Infusion of Light that reduces cast time on several spells when you crit.

Vital Mists is just missing it's place in the design. Consider that Surging Mist is our fast flash heal spell, yet Vital Mists makes it cast ... faster? It, like numerous other monk abilities, were designed to be more potent in the PvP world than in a PvE environment. So, realistically, the only benefit you get out of it is the reduced cost. The cost of surging mist is a big deal, but it's not really that you are lowering the cost of it with Vital Mist because you are investing into that buff with both mana and chi.

I'd love to see Vital Mists really be something interesting. Kaels posted an interesting concept of being able to focus your eminence and I think that Vital Mists could be a fun and interesting concept for how to focus that eminence.
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94 Goblin Warlock
9210
Vital Mists is just missing it's place in the design. Consider that Surging Mist is our fast flash heal spell, yet Vital Mists makes it cast ... faster?


Er... the design niche here seems pretty obvious. It allows you to throw out Surgings without slowing down your fistweaving.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
7725
It would be nice if Vital Mists allowed us to cast instant enveloping mists as well, with and have eminence healing be increased 20% on that target during the duration of enveloping, so "Fistweaving" would have a counterpart to soothing+enveloping.
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90 Human Monk
11325
01/24/2013 08:20 PMPosted by Leviathan
Vital Mists is just missing it's place in the design. Consider that Surging Mist is our fast flash heal spell, yet Vital Mists makes it cast ... faster?


Er... the design niche here seems pretty obvious. It allows you to throw out Surgings without slowing down your fistweaving.


That's the "design" but not the "design niche". It's not actually performing a function within the healing. Given non-stop fistweaving, you get a free instant cast every 10 GCD's if you just go from jab>TP>jab>TP which is just bad. The reason it doesn't fit a niche is because trying to line up the stacks of VM with when people actually need that much healing to warrant the cast is just a very slim chance.

This is why something like the paladin versions work better in practice because you are only investing 3 GCD's or you are building it off of a spell crit. It's more likely to have these abilities line up with useful times compared to working on a 5 stack ability.

Again, it's an extremely strong ability in PvP but it's just not something that's going to be a major change to efficiency or throughput in a PvE environment.
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