I feel like Blizzard lost sight of...

90 Tauren Death Knight
10810
Except they don't play like Warriors. My monk doesn't have the same synergistic visceral feeling as popping Shield Block and Inner Rage and really going to town on a pack of mobs. Nothing in the game really does anymore, and it is sad.

Also, nothing about what I wrote said Execute was a bad change. I just feel that with my Warrior, that tying Rage into Mitigation has been to negative a change on the speed of the class. In no way would that have been lost with a simple second resource, and it would be easier to control.
Edited by Raztrent on 1/27/2013 10:55 PM PST
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A second resource, one specifically for mitigation, would a be terrible. there would be no thought involved at all. It also would make warriors play like an entirely different class. Warrior tanks today play like they did in Wrath and Cata, and are more similar to their BC iteration than paladins, if that means anything. In fact, warriors and rogues are the only classes that I haven't felt like I have to re-learn how to play each expansion.

Rage generation might have a different source, but it ability usage flows as well as it ever did, and I don't have to take off my pants in old content. My cleave finger doesn't hurt after a prolonged playing session. Using HS/Cleave is now an actual choice and not just an instinctive twitch.

I never did any of that "Shield Slam + Cleave into Revenge + Cleave into Thunderclap + Cleave" nonsense. Cleave was its own thing, off the GCD, and for me, triggered by a mouse button while SS, Revenge, Thunderclap, and Devastate were keyboard functions. I still Shield slam then revenge then Thunderclap and spam devastate, watching for S&B procs. Revenge CD resetting took it from being a boring rotational tick and made it a hot button. Rather than brainlessly spamming HS/Cleave, or worse, macroing it and forgetting they existed, you now make either a conscious choice to sacrifice survival for extra damage or fire it off when it procs for free.

Playing a warrior tank is still a fast-paced reactive experience, and yes, the play style would have been irretrievably lost had a second resource been foisted upon it.
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90 Night Elf Druid
5475
01/25/2013 10:55 PMPosted by Ðemolition
The current rage is literally holy power multiplied by 20.


Spending wise, that's kind of true (although I don't know what paladin attack costs 1 1/2 HP), but generating works differently, with Primal Fury and Mangle cooldown resets.

01/26/2013 07:27 AMPosted by Zeroic
My warrior feels like I'm limited to only using rage for SB, and all my other rage abilities sit idle.


How many other rage costing abilities do you have (other than HS, which is not really intended for tanking)? Maybe some of them should be made rage free so they don't cause a resource conflict with your AM, IDK.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14305
How many other rage costing abilities do you have (other than HS, which is not really intended for tanking)? Maybe some of them should be made rage free so they don't cause a resource conflict with your AM, IDK.


Shield Block, Shield Barrier, Heroic Strike, Cleave, and Execute are the only rage-costing abilities for prot. HS and Cleave are free some of the time thanks to Ultimatum procs. Execute being available to tanks in Defensive stance is new to MoP.

So in this case, "all my other rage abilities sit idle" just means that we're not spamming HS all the time anymore. Which is a nice change, since it was mostly mindless but could cause joint pains if you weren't careful, since you'd be mashing that one button all fight every fight.
Edited by Nerfheals on 1/28/2013 11:11 AM PST
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90 Tauren Death Knight
10810
And if you didn't like playing a class that was spammy with HS and Cleave: Go play another class. There were options for classes that did not play so spammy. But to make it so no class is that way isolates people who find that type of a high-speed class enjoyable.
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01/28/2013 11:26 AMPosted by Raztrent
And if you didn't like playing a class that was spammy with HS and Cleave: Go play another class. There were options for classes that did not play so spammy. But to make it so no class is that way isolates people who find that type of a high-speed class enjoyable.


Nobody, at least no normal, psychologically healthy person, liked that model. Seven years of complaints about HS spam. Every change ever made to warriors was made to address HS spam.

Are you seriously trying to claim that Protection Warriors feel slow now because your HS finger isn't twitching anymore? You're pressing the exact same buttons as you were before, in most cases in the exact same frequency, with the sole exception being Revenge, which you are actually using more often than previously. While you don't spam HS you do use Block/Barrier, and if your Block/Barrier+HS/Cleave usage is not equal to what your HS/Cleave usage under the old system was, then I dare say you are doing something wrong.

Do you want to know the only difference in the class? The only change that was brought about, in terms of Heroic Strike, is that we are no longer inundated with threads complaining about not having enough rage to Shield Slam because of too much HS spam.

The fact that now, instead of taking off your pants to do content you overgear, you simply ignore your active mitigation and go full-on Cleave happy is a bonus too good to ignore.
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01/25/2013 10:55 PMPosted by Ðemolition
The current rage is literally holy power multiplied by 20.


Oh please - when they add a whole new system of combo points that light up under your rage bar and are completely needless when you already have a resource system, then come talk to me.
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01/28/2013 07:42 PMPosted by Calamai
Oh please - when they add a whole new system of combo points that light up under your rage bar and are completely needless when you already have a resource system, then come talk to me.


Really? You thought mana was a useful and relevant resource for Protection?

My UI has evolved considerably, but for anyone that has had the misfortune of having seen it, it utilizes Diablo-esque health and resource orbs. After some tinkering (and a widescreen monitor), I settled on a format that dispenses with extraneous pieces. For my paladin layout, that means no resource orb. I didn't need it. Mana means nothing to Protection, unless you screw up. Even when Consecration sucked your mana bar dry, mana meant nothing because it flowed so easily. Being at 50% or 70% or 100% didn't matter.

Holy Power, on the other hand, functions a lot like current rage, except rage is spent in increments of 20 and stacks to 100, and Holy Power is spent in increments of 1 and stacks to 5. When you have 3 Holy Power it affects your choices, just like how having 60 rage affects a warrior's choices. Having 60% mana, as I already mentioned, has no effect on your decision of what ability to use.

Mana, while seemingly more analog, as in you can have a little or a lot, is actually rather binary. You either have enough or you don't. And the funny thing is that if you don't have enough, it means you messed up somewhere. As I'm not in the habit of messing up, I never had a problem with mana management, which made the resource irrelevant.
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90 Tauren Warrior
9410
@zap
While I do agree with your statements about how warrior tanking is at it's best point in a long time (this is the first time since BC that I feel that my skill as a tank provides a very tangible benifit to my raid) and I do love active mitigation, I agree with many others that warriors not being nearly as "spammy" as they used to be is disheatening.

I began playing in BC and from then (I want to say I started my warrior in 2.4) through the end of wrath I broke a total of 17 keyboards by wearing out my 1(hs) key on all of them. I remember in wrath after doing our 25 man runs for the evening me and my close friends would do 10's right after and at about the 8th hour of solid raiding my hand would be so swollen that I couldn't play anymore even if I wanted to. While to some, maybe even most, that might sound awful I thoroughly enjoyed it and it felt like a badge of honor that was specific to warrior tanks to be able press your keys with speed like a concert pianist. In fact the reason I stopped playing in the 2nd week of cata and didn't start again until the MoP pre-patch is because of the changes to heroic strike.

So all in all yes this new model is better, but don't hate on us who miss the way things used to be. We will enjoy looking back on it with our rose-tinted goggles and it will always have a special place in our hearts (and carpal tunnles =D)
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90 Tauren Death Knight
10810
01/28/2013 12:02 PMPosted by Zapwidget
Nobody, at least no normal, psychologically healthy person, liked that model. Seven years of complaints about HS spam. Every change ever made to warriors was made to address HS spam.


And it has been continually made worse. Your idea that everyone who is normal and psychologically healthy does not like fast paced gaming is stupid. You could not simply spam HS/Cleave without lining up CDs properly to have the rage income to do it without losing the Rage to use your Shield Slam. The resource allowed you to be greedy, and punished you when you were too greedy. You had to learn to balance it based on the flow of combat.

01/28/2013 12:02 PMPosted by Zapwidget
Are you seriously trying to claim that Protection Warriors feel slow now because your HS finger isn't twitching anymore? You're pressing the exact same buttons as you were before, in most cases in the exact same frequency, with the sole exception being Revenge, which you are actually using more often than previously. While you don't spam HS you do use Block/Barrier, and if your Block/Barrier+HS/Cleave usage is not equal to what your HS/Cleave usage under the old system was, then I dare say you are doing something wrong.


No, it is not as fast. Waiting for rage to build up like energy, rather than being derived from the flow of combat makes the class far too predictable, and slow for building up the correct amount for each usable of the ability. Whereas you'd hit an ability every 1.5 seconds for 15 seconds every 30 seconds, you're now doing less, and that is a stated goal to not have blanket CDs.

Yes, my HS finger (#4 button) is quite bored pressing only one button per GCD, and every so often a proc.

01/28/2013 12:02 PMPosted by Zapwidget
Do you want to know the only difference in the class? The only change that was brought about, in terms of Heroic Strike, is that we are no longer inundated with threads complaining about not having enough rage to Shield Slam because of too much HS spam.


I rarely saw anyone complain about needing to hit this button, and I checked this forum relatively often throughout all of Cata, when I was at the height of my Warrior. I saw you !@#$% quite a lot about it, but pretty much everyone I knew was very happy with rage being reflective of the flow of combat, so you could tone up or down the amount at which you spam to retain the core rotation based upon how good you are at it. While the passive mitigation did mean that there was little skill involved in surviving, there was a very high cap for a Warrior to develop into to make themselves truly stand out, based on how they could access their rage income.

Now, not so much.

01/28/2013 12:02 PMPosted by Zapwidget
The fact that now, instead of taking off your pants to do content you overgear, you simply ignore your active mitigation and go full-on Cleave happy is a bonus too good to ignore.


Oh yay, we get to play the class the way it was designed to be, and the way it worked best, only when we incredibly overgear content? Yaaaaay... That gives me all the reason in the world to desire to go through that slow phase.

I went on a dungeon spree for about 5 months until MoP hit, because I knew it was the end of that playstyle. If you didn't like destroying your HS/Cleave button on the keyboard while maintaining your rotation, you could go play a paladin. Now, you do not have that option. Now, no matter what, you're stuck with slow play styles for all tanking classes. Even my DK is slow in comparison to where Vig used to be. It is so incredibly boring, because Warrior provided a home for players like me that enjoy highly active game play. If you wanted slower stuff, there was a route. That is not the case anymore, and it only screws over those of us that enjoyed playing with that level of viciousness.
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90 Orc Death Knight
tys
9350
The warrior changes have been ... controversial.

It is true that warriors are performing very well right now (and are arguably at the strongest point that they have have been in a while), but I can see where you're coming from.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14305
01/29/2013 01:37 AMPosted by Panode
I remember in wrath after doing our 25 man runs for the evening me and my close friends would do 10's right after and at about the 8th hour of solid raiding my hand would be so swollen that I couldn't play anymore even if I wanted to.


Mousewheel HS. No RSI that way.

01/29/2013 01:37 AMPosted by Panode
While to some, maybe even most, that might sound awful I thoroughly enjoyed it and it felt like a badge of honor that was specific to warrior tanks to be able press your keys with speed like a concert pianist.


Concert pianists really really don't like hand pain. It's bad for their career. Pain is pretty much bad generally. If you interpret pain as your body saying "Grats!", your nervous system might have a crossed wire somewhere. :p
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
01/28/2013 12:02 PMPosted by Zapwidget
Nobody, at least no normal, psychologically healthy person, liked that model. Seven years of complaints about HS spam. Every change ever made to warriors was made to address HS spam.


That's a bunch of bull!@#$, most of the changes throughout the years have been them trying to scale rage generation, it's the reason warriors always get nerfed at the end of an xpac, our rage scaled to the point of not having any limitations.

The new system was specifically designed to try and stop that.

Mousewheel HS. No RSI that way.


Wheel up for HS, Wheel down for cleave.

For the rest of it, warrior tanking is slower. Hands down, anyone who denies that is lying to themselves. Warriors have always been fast and reactive, DK's were slow and proactive. They moved warriors closer to DK's, we're not as proactive as DK's, but we're definitely more proactive than we have been in the past.

As someone who loved the warrior tanking style, the OP's observation about warriors not feeling right is spot on. The system is fine as is, it works, but it doesn't feel like the warrior I fell in love with.
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90 Human Warrior
12850
Man, the amount of memory bias regarding Heroic Strike and rage generation in this thread is insane.

I for one (as an artist, whose career will depend on whether or not my right hand functions) prefer the model where I don't get carpel tunnel from mashing one ability key over and over again because it's "fun and exciting gameplay." Tried it, didn't care for it, keybound around it. An ability shouldn't require itself to be keybound onto a mousewheel so you can avoid breaking your hand using it. That's a fairly simple thing. Anybody who feels that that's bull!@#$ is lying to themselves, imo. Nothing about that is "visceral," "exciting," or <insert cool sounding adjective to describe warrior gameplay here>, it's bad design. That simple.

Rage generation also was bonkers no matter what, and still is; it scaled badly in Wrath (no rage on trivial content, rage on content that hurts) and in Cata (more than zero rage in trivial content, and basically full rage bar regardless on content that hurts you), and it required zero thought to manage.

Not saying it's rocket science now either, but Rage management is actually a thing, whereas before it was "Oh boy I'm capping, better spam Heroic Strike/Cleave so that doesn't happen!"
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14305
Eh, they can like that kind of thing if they want. It's a subjective thing. People like all kinds of strange things.

02/10/2013 01:19 PMPosted by Lowmaine
Not saying it's rocket science now either, but Rage management is actually a thing, whereas before it was "Oh boy I'm capping, better spam Heroic Strike/Cleave so that doesn't happen!"


"Welp, raid's about to start pulling. Better put the hamster in the HS wheel..."
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10805
01/24/2013 06:09 AMPosted by Zeroic
Pretty much what I do too. I think I just like the paladins style of SotR better than our set up.


Paladin tanking sucks; too boring. No real option. That is why I am switching to my warrior tanks. That is also why, I believe, the Tier 15 2-piece set bonus for paladins is what it is. Adding a 40% block chance to Word of Glory, makes us want to kind of ACTUALLY use Word of Glory... Much rather play a Warrior, Druid, or Monk tank. You have mitigation options for those classes.

My opinion obvious. So take it with a grain of salt, maybe?
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90 Orc Death Knight
8960
02/10/2013 12:49 PMPosted by Rvalue
For the rest of it, warrior tanking is slower.


wut. You're pressing all the same buttons, as often as you were before (more in the case of Revenge).
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02/10/2013 12:49 PMPosted by Rvalue
That's a bunch of bull!@#$, most of the changes throughout the years have been them trying to scale rage generation, it's the reason warriors always get nerfed at the end of an xpac, our rage scaled to the point of not having any limitations.


And what did you do with all that excess rage?

I know it might take a moment to correlate infinite rage with HS spam, but I'm sure you can see the connection without having to have it directly illustrated.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
18425
We're in the best place that we've ever been in. I've been a prot warrior since Day 1 Vanilla release. It took a little to adjust but I love the new mechanics. It rewards solid play.

I do understand the RP portion of your complaint however. I won't argue that.
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