I feel like Blizzard lost sight of...

90 Tauren Warrior
9435
02/12/2013 11:29 AMPosted by Ðemolition
And by the way instead of placing it "over yonder" there is usually a spot halfway between where it can taunt mobs "over yonder" and still be in range to work on them when they get to you.


And now we get to the cons, the "oops, it's in a spot that means before they get to me they go back to @!**@##*#* the healer".

I'd like to be able to charge/intervene over there and cleave if everything else is on CD. It's just too easy to catch a warrior out now, much easier than it's ever been in the past.

02/12/2013 03:01 PMPosted by Foiblesqt
I don't think you understand what those words mean. Shield Block is proactive because you want it up before the damage occurs. Word of Glory (a heal) is reactive because it's used after the damage is taken


This is why taking things out of context is a bad idea. Technically you're right, unfortunately, you've avoided anything resembling a response to my actual point.

Technically, strafing left is proactive as well since it means I'm a smidgen closer to the healer in case they pull threat off of me. Yet something tells me no one would really consider that proactive in any real sense of the word.

OTOH, DK resources is such that if a DK isn't paying attention, they can easily find themselves with no runes up, little to no RP, and a bad situation on hand. It's a lot easier for a DK to find themselves having to wait before they can salvage a bad situation.

So they must think ahead, the DK tanking style is slower and more strategic. Warriors don't give a !@#$, we'll react when the situation happens.
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100 Human Warlock
18010
Technically, strafing left is proactive as well since it means I'm a smidgen closer to the healer in case they pull threat off of me. Yet something tells me no one would really consider that proactive in any real sense of the word.

Uh, yeah, it's proactive. If you think "Oh, the healer might move out of range of me because of <incoming mechanic>," deciding to move closer immediately is proactive, waiting until you hear on vent "Rvalue, you're out of range" to move is reactive.

Proactive means to do something before a given event, reactive means to do something after a given event. If you're pressing Shield Block in anticipation of damage happening, you're pressing Shield Block proactively. While you may be using it as a reaction to realizing Arcing Smash is coming, it's still proactive.
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90 Orc Death Knight
8960
So they must think ahead, the DK tanking style is slower and more strategic. Warriors don't give a !@#$, we'll react when the situation happens.


Block is proactive. DS heal is reactive.
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
Context matters, and I've given you the context. Your refusal to acknowledge it is your shortcoming, not mine.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
02/13/2013 12:53 AMPosted by Rvalue
And now we get to the cons, the "oops, it's in a spot that means before they get to me they go back to @!**@##*#* the healer".


not if you do it the way I said...

but anyway its really not an issue because 90% of the time I use mocking banner its when I'm losing, and I drop it in the doorway or on the other side of the pillar or whatever to make sure they don't stay in the room to kill the idiot who doesn't know what los means and was following me around.
Edited by Ðemolition on 2/14/2013 5:58 PM PST
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1 Tauren Shaman
0
re:
02/13/2013 12:53 AMPosted by Rvalue
And now we get to the cons, the "oops, it's in a spot that means before they get to me they go back to @!**@##*#* the healer".
Means you dropped it in the wrong spot, i.e. player error.
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90 Orc Death Knight
8960
02/14/2013 05:03 PMPosted by Rvalue
Context matters, and I've given you the context. Your refusal to acknowledge it is your shortcoming, not mine.


What I said is in context, you just don't understand why. Warriors have ALWAYS had proactive defenses and a proactive playstyle.
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
Warriors have always had a reactive playstyle when compared to the other tanks.

The only reason this is being contested is because you want the new tanking style to be awesome, and it cannot be awesome (in your mind) while someone points out we're less reactive than we used to be.

02/14/2013 06:34 PMPosted by Kangamooster
Means you dropped it in the wrong spot, i.e. player error.


Huh, it's almost like being able to misplace your taunt is a con, but i'm sure you're going to tell me it isn't and that the ability is perfect.
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1 Tauren Shaman
0
Being able to mess up is a con, sure. It also adds depth to the game, because if you're not able to ever mess up then there's no point in skill at all.

Also, it was significantly easier to mess up Challenging Shout compared to Mocking Banner. Lasts 30 seconds.

By the way, I'm not getting where you keep thinking Challenging Shout lasted 30 seconds. It was a 6 second fixate. Mocking Banner actually ends up lasting significantly longer.
( http://www.wowwiki.com/Challenging_Shout )

Anyway, yeah, you seriously don't understand the words proactive or reactive. DKs are reactive, DS has always been. Shield Block has always been proactive, you don't take a big hit then go "oh man, gotta Shield Block NOW instead of vs the big hit." Or, well, if you did, you're not a good tank. AM didn't change that at all.
Edited by Kangamooster on 2/16/2013 7:00 AM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
8960
02/16/2013 06:25 AMPosted by Rvalue
The only reason this is being contested is because you want the new tanking style to be awesome, and it cannot be awesome (in your mind) while someone points out we're less reactive than we used to be.


What are you talking about? I'm telling you they aren't reactive, but you refuse to listen.

02/16/2013 06:25 AMPosted by Rvalue
Huh, it's almost like being able to misplace your taunt is a con, but i'm sure you're going to tell me it isn't and that the ability is perfect.


lol.
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90 Tauren Warrior
2570
02/16/2013 06:25 AMPosted by Rvalue
it cannot be awesome (in your mind) while someone points out we're less reactive than we used to be.


What exactly would you react to before that you aren't reacting to now? Not you the avatar in game, you the player at the keyboard.

Is hitting HS when Ultimatum procs less reactive than spamming HS?

Is hitting Revenge when it procs less reactive than hitting Revenge on CD?

The only example given of how warriors are supposedly less reactive is the source of rage generation. I've already argued that the old model was not reactive, it was passive.

Warriors are indeed less passive than they were before. All tanks are. While I can certainly understand that you want to play a passive class that requires no real activity, it's just not what the warrior class is about, nor has it ever been.
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
02/16/2013 06:37 AMPosted by Kangamooster
By the way, I'm not getting where you keep thinking Challenging Shout lasted 30 seconds.


You're going on my ignore list. I cannot abide someone putting words in my mouth.

02/16/2013 08:24 AMPosted by Stormhammer
What exactly would you react to before that you aren't reacting to now? Not you the avatar in game, you the player at the keyboard.


Leading question. Lets look back at what I said.

For the rest of it, warrior tanking is slower. Hands down, anyone who denies that is lying to themselves. Warriors have always been fast and reactive, DK's were slow and proactive. They moved warriors closer to DK's, we're not as proactive as DK's, but we're definitely more proactive than we have been in the past.


It's slower because now I get to sit and spam SS/Revenge and wait on my rage to fill up in the hopes that I can use some form of mitigation at the right time.


Warriors are just as active in 5 mans for 1 reason: 5 mans are so easy you don't bother mitigating anything, rage is irrelevant, and you don't find yourself waiting on anything.


We have always been reactive tanks. We have so many tools, we don't sit and preplan, we react. DK's are proactive because it's so easy for them to get caught out with everything down and no way to salvage the situation.


proactive is not burning that rune because that pat is getting close to the healer and you don't want to get caught with your pants down. A warrior just doesn't care, they'll react to the change in the situation and be effective doing it.


02/13/2013 12:53 AMPosted by Rvalue
It's just too easy to catch a warrior out now, much easier than it's ever been in the past.


02/16/2013 06:25 AMPosted by Rvalue
Warriors have always had a reactive playstyle when compared to the other tanks.


The problem is when you get jackasses that want to take the word literally. A DK with all runes down who runes around /y OH NO is technically reacting, it doesn't make that a reactive style of tanking. I have explained the context in which I made the statement, you either take it as such or go the !@#$ away. This pretending you're too stupid to understand context needs to stop.
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90 Tauren Warrior
2570
The problem is when you get jackasses that want to take the word literally. A DK with all runes down who runes around /y OH NO is technically reacting, it doesn't make that a reactive style of tanking. I have explained the context in which I made the statement, you either take it as such or go the !@#$ away. This pretending you're too stupid to understand context needs to stop.


Warriors have never been a reactive playstyle, especially in comparison to other tanks. The only thing that has changed is instead of hitting the same button constantly in a thoughtless, monotonous rhythm that only you can hear you are actually reacting to external stimuli while playing.

Yes, it took me a few dozen hours of play before I finally stopped constantly scrolling my mousewheel every 1.5 seconds, but that only highlights how non-reactive it was. It wasn't something I did in response to something else, it was just something I did.

My rage bar has meaning now. It has value and a reason to be on my UI. In the old way it was either full or empty, feast or famine. Either my action buttons were highlighted, or I wasn't in combat. And considering that the only things that cost rage are HS/Cleave and Block/Barrier, there is literally nothing I cannot react to now that I could have before, but there is plenty I can react to now that I could not before.
Edited by Stormhammer on 2/16/2013 9:49 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
We have always been reactive tanks. We have so many tools, we don't sit and preplan, we react. DK's are proactive because it's so easy for them to get caught out with everything down and no way to salvage the situation.


I'm not sure why you felt the need to emphasize and repost this.

Because its wrong.

02/16/2013 09:17 AMPosted by Rvalue
proactive is not burning that rune because that pat is getting close to the healer and you don't want to get caught with your pants down. A warrior just doesn't care, they'll react to the change in the situation and be effective doing it.


....no if I see a pat getting close to the healer I'm definitely going to do something before they start hitting him....
Edited by Ðemolition on 2/16/2013 11:43 AM PST
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
I'm not sure why you felt the need to emphasize and repost this.

Because its wrong.


That's because you're being as bullheaded as the others. It kills me when people think attacking a strawman is valuable in some manner.

Watching the healer and getting prepared to save that healer is called being a tank. That has nothing to do with it.

The difference is that when a DK sees the danger, they're going to start conserving runes to make sure that when/if it happens, they can do something about it (they're going to be proactive).

A warrior just doesn't give a !@#$, if/when that healer pulls that extra group, we're going to
react, and we're going to be effective doing it.

It takes a hell of a lot more before a warrior is caught with no way to deal with a change in a situation except to wait and pray.

The issue is that it's a lot easier this xpac than it has been in the past, and if your'e undergeared for the 5 man content, it's even easier. The only saving grace we have that puts us anywhere on par with how we were last xpac is the fact that no warrior worth his salt even bothers with mitigation in 5 mans anymore, the incoming damage just isn't enough.

But that reason is a %^-* excuse for why we're just as flexible and reactive as we have been in the past. We are not, and the apologists need to admit that. No one in this thread has stated warriors are not viable, but some of us lament the slower pace.

It is possible for you to enjoy warrior tanking and accept that the pace is not as fast as it used to be. And no, I'm not talking about filling GCD's or continually hammering 1-2 buttons, we do that now, but our tanking style is slower.

And it's too bad.

02/16/2013 11:41 AMPosted by Ðemolition
....no if I see a pat getting close to the healer I'm definitely going to do something before they start hitting him....


That's called being a tank, stop being disingenuous.
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90 Orc Death Knight
8960
02/16/2013 09:17 AMPosted by Rvalue
it doesn't make that a reactive style of tanking


It's reactive because Death Knights take the damage and then use DS to heal it back.

02/16/2013 10:07 PMPosted by Rvalue
The difference is that when a DK sees the danger, they're going to start conserving runes to make sure that when/if it happens, they can do something about it (they're going to be proactive).


No, we're going to taunt or use Death Grip, just as a Warrior would taunt or use Heroic Throw.

The issue is that it's a lot easier this xpac than it has been in the past, and if your'e undergeared for the 5 man content, it's even easier. The only saving grace we have that puts us anywhere on par with how we were last xpac is the fact that no warrior worth his salt even bothers with mitigation in 5 mans anymore, the incoming damage just isn't enough.


Tanks quickly move past tanking gear for dungeons, and have for years.

It is possible for you to enjoy warrior tanking and accept that the pace is not as fast as it used to be. And no, I'm not talking about filling GCD's or continually hammering 1-2 buttons, we do that now, but our tanking style is slower.


SS on cooldown.
Rev on cooldown.
TC on cooldown in aoe, otherwise to maintain the debuff.
Shield Block BEFORE you take the hits (proactive).
Shield Barrier BEFORE the damage (proactive).
Shout for rage.
HS when rage allows or Ultimatium.
Dev to fill.

Other than removing the spamming of Heroic Strike, Warriors play pretty similarly as they always have concerning the actual damage buttons.
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