Is glyph of riptide a recommended glyph?

90 Draenei Shaman
3655
Elitist Jerks, a well respected site for character optimization, suggests glyph of riptide as a recommended glyph.

http://elitistjerks.com/f79/t130574-resto_raid_healing_5_1_mop/#Glyphs

However, from asking friends and a quick search of google on the topic, I've found that most people feel that the glyph is not worth it in almost all situations.

Now I don't think the peeps over at elitistjerks are 100% acurate all the time, but they generally give a pretty good overview of how and why to build your character a certian way. So, the question is where's the disconnect?

In asking people about the subject they say they don't glyph riptide becuase its too mana intensive, they have very high uptime on tidal waves anyway, and in a spread out situation with no oportunity to stack up they found it better to use glyph of chaining.

100% uptime on tidal waves and the glyph making mobile and spread out situations easier to heal are the reasons given for why glyph of riptide is a recommended glyph on the elitist jerks site.

So, I was wondering if there is some sort of disconnect here? Are the really good players that help to compose the guides at elitist jerks doing somthing that the average players that I've talked to aren't doing? Or do you agree that only rarely, if ever, should one be using the riptide glyph?

Thanks
Reply Quote
100 Orc Shaman
HC
17440
Must be an error on their part, the glyph is horrendous.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
It's only really good in hyper mobile environments like the last phase of Blade lord. It's costly and doesn't help out with tidal waves all that much. The burst heal from it is an awful lot to lose, too. Now, it might help out on fights like garalon too, but... I doubt that it's anywhere near mandatory, even for fights it's semi-good for.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Mage
17990
Well that post was written last August, so the only people with any experience using that glyph were a tiny handful of people who were able to raid a few times on the Beta.

To the extent their definition of "recommended" implies it should be used almost all of the time, I think you are correct that most Shaman find the glyph only situationally useful.
Edited by Taymage on 1/25/2013 10:41 AM PST
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Mage
17990
01/25/2013 10:33 AMPosted by Sensations
Must be an error on their part, the glyph is horrendous.


I'm actually glad to hear you say this. I tried the glyph out on a LFR Garalon encounter, and found myself *very* sad I couldn't remove the glyph in the middle of a fight. Very little healing, and it made my mana vanish.

But I was wondering whether this was happening only because (1) my shaman is poorly geared; and/or (2) I don't know how to play my Shaman anymore. Although I suppose it could be all three . . .
Edited by Taymage on 1/25/2013 10:42 AM PST
Reply Quote
100 Orc Shaman
HC
17440
Must be an error on their part, the glyph is horrendous.


I'm actually glad to hear you say this. I tried the glyph out on a LFR Garalon encounter, and found myself *very* sad I couldn't remove the glyph in the middle of a fight. Very little healing, and it made my mana vanish.

But I was wondering whether this was happening only because (1) my shaman is poorly geared; and/or (2) I don't know how to play my Shaman anymore. Although I suppose it could be all three . . .


The problem with the glyph is, last I checked the direct heal was roughly ~33%(Could be more) of riptides total healing in a realistic raid setting. Riptides HoT not only heals for a pathetic amount, but the longer duration makes it even worse in terms of effective healing. So you're losing a very nice upfront heal for a spammable HoT that doesn't touch similar effects, cost the same amount of mana and attributes the majority of it's healing to overhealing.

Even blade lords phase 2, the glyph isn't worth it because of phase 1. I can't see any amount of gear making the glyph worth it, it is so situational I'd be surprised if one or two fights this entire x-pac make us "want" it.
Edited by Sensations on 1/25/2013 11:54 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Shaman
9855
01/25/2013 10:33 AMPosted by Sensations
Must be an error on their part, the glyph is horrendous.


this
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
17270
The EJ guide has a few issues in my eyes. Mainly Glyph of Riptide, Echo's value as resto, gems, alchemy not getting enough respect for 25 man raiding.

Overall, tons of good stuff too though! Most of which would be brutal to find otherwise.

SO riptide glyph.
You know how else to have 100% uptime on riptide, Chain Heal.

Riptide without the glyph isn't really great in the HPS/HPM catagory. Riptide with the glyph is even worse!

I personally don't find it more useful than Spiritwalker's Grace on bladelord. HTT one direction then ghost wolf, tele HTT forward along the way. The way back Asc with SWG (or be someone that takes the slipstream shortcut so you can SWG during HTT running). Easy as pie, and doesn't lead to oom.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Shaman
15810
My direct heal of riptide is just too high to give up. Just looked at my heroic vizier kill and direct riptide portion was 30% of the total heal

Why the heck would I give this up for the weakest hot in the game (next to earthliving).

And for blade lord, good cooldown management means a resto shaman will have access to the following in phase 2:

HTT
Ascendance
SWG (glyph it here)
EM (if spec'd)
one-two elementals for PE

The SWG (20 sec glyphed) for the first run is amazing followed by a big cooldown. Then use the tunnel on the side to go to the other side and another big cooldown. Riptide glyph doesn't even have a purpose here.

edit - to be fair I should have picked a more equal fight but the power in riptide is tidal waves + the upfront heal. The HoT is largely irrelevant / not where the primary power arises from the spell.
Edited by Gardiff on 1/25/2013 12:26 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Mage
17990
01/25/2013 10:53 AMPosted by Sensations


I'm actually glad to hear you say this. I tried the glyph out on a LFR Garalon encounter, and found myself *very* sad I couldn't remove the glyph in the middle of a fight. Very little healing, and it made my mana vanish.

But I was wondering whether this was happening only because (1) my shaman is poorly geared; and/or (2) I don't know how to play my Shaman anymore. Although I suppose it could be all three . . .


The problem with the glyph is, last I checked the direct heal was roughly ~33%(Could be more) of riptides total healing. Riptides HoT not only heals for a pathetic amount, but the longer duration makes it even worse in terms of effective healing. So you're losing a very nice upfront heal for a spammable HoT that doesn't touch similar effects, cost the same amount of mana and attributes the majority of it's healing to overhealing.

Even blade lords phase 2, the glyph isn't worth it because of phase 1. I can't see any amount of gear making the glyph worth it, it is so situational I'd be surprised if one or two fights this entire x-pac make us "want" it.


Yeah, it kind of seemed like all of the sudden I had a terrible, terrible rejuv.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
12515
It might be difference if TW actually gave real spell haste to the next spell. Then you'd have extra ticks if you were chaining Riptides, or you could have hasted CH or HR, and it might actually make sense to glyph it for AoE.

But it doesn't, so the TW argument only makes sense if you're casting a lot of single-target spells, in which case losing your only instant direct heal sucks. When I glyphed it on beta I felt like a gimped holy priest.
Edited by Kaels on 1/25/2013 11:34 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
3655
According to wowhead.com, the initial heal on riptide is only ~10% of the total heal assuming you have enough haste for the +1 tick on it (which you should).

So you're losing about 9% of the heal by glyphing it, and if you can keep it up on just 1 more person it should be a significant net gain in healing.

The guide on elitist jerks may have been written in augest, but it has been updated for 5.1.

Just playing devils advocate as all the discussion here is going one way.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
12515
According to wowhead.com, the initial heal on riptide is only ~10% of the total heal assuming you have enough haste for the +1 tick on it (which you should).

So you're losing about 9% of the heal by glyphing it, and if you can keep it up on just 1 more person it should be a significant net gain in healing.

You can't value an instant direct heal, point for point, the same as the ticks of a rather long HoT because of:

1) Mastery. If you assume that the HoT is fully effective (in most circumstances, that means it gets left alone to gradually heal up a target), each tick gets progressively less Mastery benefit than the last. The initial heal gets the most benefit and may heal for as much as 20% more than the same-size tick would at the end.

2) Timing. You can pretty much guarantee that the initial heal of Riptide goes to someone who needs it (not just in terms of being fully effective, but in terms of being valuable toward keeping them alive in the short term).

3) Overhealing. The average overhealing of a HoT tick is directly related to how long it's been on the target. While the initial heal may only be 10% of the theoretical healing of Riptide, it may be 20-30% (or more) of the effective healing. That's especially true for a raidhealing shaman because you use Riptide to buff Chain Heal, so you actually snipe your own HoT. On purpose.
Edited by Kaels on 1/25/2013 12:07 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
10190
01/25/2013 10:37 AMPosted by Keirisonis
It's only really good in hyper mobile environments like the last phase of Blade lord. It's costly and doesn't help out with tidal waves all that much. The burst heal from it is an awful lot to lose, too. Now, it might help out on fights like garalon too, but... I doubt that it's anywhere near mandatory, even for fights it's semi-good for.


That was my thoughts on it too. I healed a lot in Cata on my Shammy and having that big heal when riptide hit was the difference between life and death at times. I looked at the glyph and thought about it but losing that burst at the start just seems like too much to sacrifice, especially since riptide doesn't have a long CD.

Personal preference for me would be not glyphing it even for movement heavy fights unless the damage outgoing is moderate and I can sacrifice that heal (or not be as dependent on it) and have a constant HoT available.

I remember when MoP was looming and I kept hearing about how great the glyph was and all I kept thinking was 'Why?'
Reply Quote
90 Orc Shaman
15810
oo edit bad mistakes.

will fix soon.

So in WoL under riptide, the "direct heal" portion for whatever reason includes HoT crit ticks as well which made me think it was a lot higher.

Still, on a fight like vizier, the direct portion is just shy of 30%, while it tends to be 15% for me on pulse aoe fights. That is if you are finding a use for it on cooldown which usually isn't hard.

And like kaels said, the power comes in the up-front portion being valuable in the short term which is usually the case since we follow up with fast single target heals through tidal waves. That's at least how I see the design in the spell and why I prefer it non glyphed. Having an instant often 35k+ heal (with a decent amount of mastery) followed by fast heals which are pretty cheap and efficient makes for smooth play. Without that 35k instant, that person may simply drop in some circumstances for example because of a delayed HoT (if you glyph it) and a long ~ 1.5 seconds before a heal comes through.

Basically I am saying it doesn't mesh well with the shaman playstyle.

Of course you can argue that you can still healing surge instead, but that is hard on mana ESPECIALLY without tidal waves which means you would have needed a riptide in the first place (or chain heal, but I am pretty sure we are talking about single targets for the most part here).
Edited by Gardiff on 1/25/2013 12:33 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
13250
Anything that take that large of the percentage of the heal away from you can't be all that good. With the size of health pools if you remove the intial heal the spell is a small wet noodle.

edit: also the overhealing of RT is generally pretty high so the tail end of RT is usually not used. Especially if you are bouncing a CH off the the RT target which you should be.
Edited by Harpoa on 1/25/2013 12:49 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Mage
17990
The original version of the glyph was to remove the direct heal *entirely*
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
12525
The glyph is horrible, you also should be able to manage gcds without tidal waves by doing things like healing rain, refreshing/recalling healing stream, throwing a lightning bolt for tc glyph mana etc.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Shaman
15810
01/25/2013 12:54 PMPosted by Taymage
The original version of the glyph was to remove the direct heal *entirely*


If I remember right, the reason this was changed to add an upfront heal was that if you didn't have ANY upfront heal, we couldn't proc resurgence at all from riptide and so they added it during beta after some complaints.

Though i believe the real reason there was complaining was that the glyph mostly sucked.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
17270
You are correct... the move from removal to 90% of the initial heal was reinstating resurgence.

The initial heal is:
3735 (+ 33.9% of SpellPower)

The 7 ticks (with reasonable haste) are:
1764 (+ 16% of SpellPower)
for a total of:
12348 (+112% of Spellpower)

Initial is 23% of the total riptide healing, excluding the increase from crits-Awakening. So you are looking at a 20% loss in HPS/HPM from the spell.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]