HoH with an Invocating mage in the raid

90 Draenei Shaman
12770
Healing team is full-time Disc priest, myself (as of tomorrow; until now I've been running my Mistweaver), and our swing healer being a spriest with Holy OS (and we mostly 3-heal so it's more like he's a Holy priest who occasionally goes shadow to dps...)

So we have not one, but *two* HoHs.

We also have a Fire mage whose spec revolves around dps'ing to OOM, then regenning mana via Evocate. Thus we find the mage's frequent (temporary) OOMdom sucks up an awful lot of the priests' HoHs, which are mostly needed for the Holy priest and my former Mistweaver (though the Disc isn't a brilliant player and isn't playing anywhere near optimally so he definitely enjoys benefitting from HoH too, if he can, in the meantime... but that's a different issue I'm tackling...).

My MTT will definitely help the situation from now on, but I'd also rather learn how to make the best use of the assets we each bring to raid night. My pre-MoP main was a Disc priest, so I'm intimately familiar with the ability (including the alterations which were made to it in the pre-MoP patch); how do raids deal with trying to fit a Fire mage's mana situation in and around the healers' need for mana regen? Do we identify that one or more healers could use mana, and that within... the next 15 sec at least one priest will be able to stop healing and channel HoH for 8 sec without wiping us, and then order the mage to stop what she's doing to Evocate first, if she's low on mana?

As casual raiders, man, that's... a lot of long-term preparation to juggle. We'll work on it, if that's the only real way of trying to be sure the mana goes to the people who truly need it, but I'm hoping someone out there has additional tips and suggestions which might help.

Thanks in advance!
Edited by Ellarix on 1/19/2013 7:48 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
There is no Fire mage spec that involves deliberately losing all your mana. Are you sure you don't mean an Arcane mage? Even so his intention should not be to go OOM, most likely...
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I think your Mage is doing it wrong. I don't know that much about Mages, but from what I know, the only dps spec in the game that ever has to worry about mana is Arcane, and even then, he should NOT be blowing his mana until he's almost oom because then he loses a ton of damage from mastery.
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90 Draenei Shaman
12770
... it's quite possible that a) she's doing it wrong or b) I've been given overly exaggerated info indicating the frequency with which she eats up HoHs... or both.

All I know is she has a 10sec cooldown on Evocate via the Invocate talent and that her mana situation is of concern for HoH-use.

The idea is that she's not reporting she's actually in OOM-trouble; she's doing fine managing her mana without help from HoH, whereas the Holy priest, especially, is humped if he doesn't get the HoH-infusion.

So, while the mage might not be playing optimally (we're casual 6hr-per-week raiders, afterall, but she's definitely one of our better players and comes from a history of more serious raiding back in Vanilla/BC), the situation still stands.

Are there steps we can take to try to get the HoH mana to the people who need it, or am I trying to micro-manage something that can't really be micro-managed?
Edited by Ellarix on 1/19/2013 6:37 PM PST
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90 Draenei Priest
6975
... it's quite possible that a) she's doing it wrong or b) I've been given overly exaggerated info indicating the frequency with which she eats up HoHs... or both.

All I know is she has a 10sec cooldown on Evocate via the Invocate talent and that her mana situation is of concern for HoH-use.

The idea is that she's not reporting she's actually in OOM-trouble; she's doing fine managing her mana without help from HoH, whereas the Holy priest, especially, is humped if he doesn't get the HoH-infusion.

So, while the mage might not be playing optimally (we're casual 6hr-per-week raiders, afterall, but she's definitely one of our better players and comes from a history of more serious raiding back in Vanilla/BC), the situation still stands.

Are there steps we can take to try to get the HoH mana to the people who need it, or am I trying to micro-manage something that can't really be micro-managed?


It can be micro-managed but I honestly wouldn't recommend it; locks, spriests, and (arcane) mages are pretty bad about being low on mana, so there's a pretty decent chance you'll lose some ticks to a DPS.

Is your holy priest using mana pots? They're worth an extra ~10% mana.

e: Also, if I'm right about who your hpriest is, make sure he's careful with CoH (mediocre HPM) and Cascade (loses a decent chunk of HPM in 10m) usage, and I'd suggest that he swap B&S for Angelic Feather, since it's really not a good idea to blow 18k mana on a movement buff. He also shouldn't ever use HW:Sanc because it's disgustingly weak for the amount of mana it costs.

Also also also, he should probably limit his Renew usage since he's under the haste breakpoint and Renew's benefit from mastery is pitiful (around 3-4% of its total effect depending on your mastery).

I don't know if he actually has usage problems, I'm just trying to offer suggestions that might help if he does :X
Edited by Dysrhythmia on 1/19/2013 6:59 PM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
12770
01/19/2013 06:52 PMPosted by Dysrhythmia
I don't know if he actually has usage problems, I'm just trying to offer suggestions that might help if he does :X


Thank ya for any and all info, True :)
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90 Human Priest
10005
It can be micro-managed but I honestly wouldn't recommend it; locks, spriests, and (arcane) mages are pretty bad about being low on mana, so there's a pretty decent chance you'll lose some ticks to a DPS.

Is your holy priest using mana pots? They're worth an extra ~10% mana.

e: Also, if I'm right about who your hpriest is, make sure he's careful with CoH (mediocre HPM) and Cascade (loses a decent chunk of HPM in 10m) usage, and I'd suggest that he swap B&S for Angelic Feather, since it's really not a good idea to blow 18k mana on a movement buff. He also shouldn't ever use HW:Sanc because it's disgustingly weak for the amount of mana it costs.

Also also also, he should probably limit his Renew usage since he's under the haste breakpoint and Renew's benefit from mastery is pitiful (around 3-4% of its total effect depending on your mastery).

I don't know if he actually has usage problems, I'm just trying to offer suggestions that might help if he does :X


Thanks for the reply. As to the above, no the fire mage is not "doing it wrong". Invocation is the most popular lvl 90 talent for fire mages so most guilds running fire mages will have them running low on mana throughout the fight and evocating every 35-40 seconds (not OOM but sometimes low enough to snipe HoH ticks). Of course the amount of mana they lose will depend on movement (scorch is cheap) and how many instant pyroblasts they get (and also if it's movement heavy for a period they can't exactly plop down and complete a full evocation on schedule). I think managing it will ultimately come down to communication or failing that managing it myself by watching the mage's mana bar and weighing it against known incoming down (i.e., do I have the time to HoH when the mage's mana is full).

As to the above, yes CoH is low on my healing done list typically and I almost never cast Sanc as it's pretty awful (and I'm using a mastery build which loses ticks, same goes for renew and why I never use it). And I find Cascade to be the better option for many of the fights in the second half of HoF where we're spending our time. Too much time spent split for DS to be as useful (except wind lord).

I am pretty awful at remembering to use mana pots though (aka never). But it will be a cold day before I give up my lovely B&S. I can't stand feathers on principle. Granted if progression counted on the use of a movement ability of course I wouldn't use B&S as it snipes shields from my disc priest. But it has yet to come to that :)
Edited by Soterion on 1/19/2013 7:58 PM PST
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90 Draenei Priest
6975
Yeah Cascade's pretty much the default except for like Feng and maybe Garajal, I'm just saying it loses a ton of efficiency due to 10m lowering the hard target cap by default.

I just usually pop my mana pots when I'm at 80% or so mana if Mindbender's on CD.
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90 Troll Mage
15740
Arcane mages at this point in time should never drop below like 70% mana. So I doubt he is arcane

Fire mages if they use invocate shouldn't be going oom. For example I just tested it myself and I did not drop below 50% mana before I had to evocate again with invocate.

I would imagine frost would be in a similar mana boat. I can't imagine them going too much lower in that time period.

So either the mages is greatly exaggerating or he/she is doing terribly.
Edited by Hiroran on 1/19/2013 9:54 PM PST
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90 Gnome Monk
7430
Arcane mages at this point in time should never drop below like 70% mana. So I doubt he is arcane

Fire mages if they use invocate shouldn't be going oom. For example I just tested it myself and I did not drop below 50% mana before I had to evocate again with invocate.

I would imagine frost would be in a similar mana boat. I can't imagine them going too much lower in that time period.

So either the mages is greatly exaggerating or he/she is doing terribly.


I'd have to think this is the case. Blizzard has pretty clearly stated that dps specs aren't supposed to be mana limited with the exception of arcane mages who have tools and incentive to generally maintain a high level of mana. If your dps is sniping HoH ticks from the healers either they or your healing team are "doing it wrong".
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90 Human Priest
15890
I started showing mana bars in Wrath (raiding in 25s) to make for darn sure that all of the healers were lower in mana than the ret pallies, enhance shaman, mages, warlocks, etc.

Hymn of Hope is my least favorite ability as a priest. In fact, my raid announcement for it says "Activating Hymn of Hope, must be desperate". It doesn't give much mana, requires a long channel (which isn't always possible to get the whole thing off with all of the required movement out there), and isn't even going to for sure give me anything. I mostly try to use it to "boost" my mindbender when I get low enough that I can be sure to get anything out of it - assuming that the raid situation allows it when the mindbender comes up.

It is generally better mana returns to make the resto shaman do the first mana tide earlier (and on cooldown thereafter) than to try and find a place to use HoH.
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90 Draenei Shaman
12770
01/20/2013 07:35 AMPosted by Nzete
It is generally better mana returns to make the resto shaman do the first mana tide earlier (and on cooldown thereafter) than to try and find a place to use HoH.


... agreed, and as I say, once the shammy steps in over my Mistweaver, the healing team's mana situation will change noticeably no matter what we do or don't do with HoH. However, just because HoH's effect isn't as noticeable as MTT's doesn't mean we shouldn't use it. Two priests' HoHs (which will sometimes mean as many as four HoH over the course of a fight) is nothing to spit at. Additionally, if we ever manage to do more 2-healing, the Disc priest's HoH will be that much more important, and it'd be in our best interests to work on the mana cooldown situation before we hit that moment.

Just because the mage may or may not be doing things wrong, and just because we're casual, doesn't mean those of us who're interested to play better shouldn't do what we can to play better.

... I agree that there will be fights where the correct action will be for the priests to *not* stop healing (... or moving...) to channel any ticks of HoH, but especially for casual raiders, if you don't use it, you lose it (... the muscle memory and skill to assess "when is the right time for me to use this ability?" in the heat of the moment); when we overheal (bring 3 healers instead of 2) I'll always advocate use of cooldowns even on fights where they're not 100% needed simply to keep people in good practice, because they *will* be needed at a later date, in future progression. And it's like pulling teeth to get casual raiders into good habits.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Arcane mages at this point in time should never drop below like 70% mana. So I doubt he is arcane

Fire mages if they use invocate shouldn't be going oom. For example I just tested it myself and I did not drop below 50% mana before I had to evocate again with invocate.

I would imagine frost would be in a similar mana boat. I can't imagine them going too much lower in that time period.

So either the mages is greatly exaggerating or he/she is doing terribly.


I'd have to think this is the case. Blizzard has pretty clearly stated that dps specs aren't supposed to be mana limited with the exception of arcane mages who have tools and incentive to generally maintain a high level of mana. If your dps is sniping HoH ticks from the healers either they or your healing team are "doing it wrong".


Or it could be a normal part of their rotation. Boomkin, for instance, drop to half/below half mana while going from one eclipse to another. Of course, as soon as they hit their next eclipse, their mana bar refills. But if you happen to pop HoH towards the end of their rotation, but before they hit their next eclipse, they're going to get ticks they do not need.
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15 Human Mage
0
The real solution to this problem is for blizzard to change HoH so that healers are top priority regardless of DPS mana levels.
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