Divine purpose baseline

90 Blood Elf Paladin
18840
Pros and Cons, let's hear it.
Ret sustaining damage needs a bit of work on. Ret's burst however is pretty insane, but we need it since our damage does fall down quite a bit.

I think having DP baseline it would make our sustaining dps a lot better because we'd have more damage going out(finishers/HoL). It wouldn't have much effect on our burst because during CDs you're always using HoW or TV every other global and you would simple ignore DP to not waste SW/HA.

It would also just add some style to our pretty easy rotation, let's be honest, not much to ret in terms of how simple its rotation is. It would also favor the new tier 4p.

thoughts? flames? anything else
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
Con: A lot of Rets dislike the RNG or "feel" of Divine Purpose. That's why it's a talent in MoP.

If Ret needs a PvE DPS buff, I'll welcome it in PvP. However I don't think this is the way to go about it. Maybe just buff core attacks by a few percentages? The following isn't a serious suggestion because the devs wouldn't do anything so drastic, but in a perfect world this is what I'd like to see:

-- Get rid of GoAK entirely for Ret (hate this spell).
-- Lower Avenging Wrath's CD back to 2 min because it feels way too long at 3 min.
-- Balance Holy Avenger around a ~1 min CD so it's not always used with AW.
-- Sanctified Wrath would of course need to be rebalanced as well -- rather than increasing the duration of Wings, maybe have it focus more on buffing Hammer of Wrath (give it more oomph, make it feel like a proper Execute).
-- After all that is done, whatever DPS Ret is lacking should be baked into our core rotation (CS, TV, etc).
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90 Human Paladin
20155
Pro: It's more fun and it makes us less reliant on cooldowns to do any respectable damage.

Con: None. There's practically no RNG in the Ret rotation right now and it gets very boring unless you take DP to shake it up.

I'm all for getting rid of GOAK, moving AW back to 2 min, and changing HA to 1 or 1.5min cd. I don't know anyone that actually likes our crappy pet.
Edited by Tonìc on 1/20/2013 6:45 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18840
GoAk hits like a truck in pve, it's a great cooldown. other than that I agree with you tonic, well maybe making HA a 1-1.5 min cd is a bit too much
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13950
It's been suggested a lot and I agree it should be back. The reason people hated in cata was because our HP generation in itself sucked and DP was a crutch, now that the problem is fixed it would make a great addition. As the OP said, we have next to no rng in the rotation now and this would bring back a little fun. Not to mention up our damage outside cds, help Inq refresh seem like a bit less of a pain and help out in pvp.

As for Guardian I'm not a huge fan but if we're getting rid of a cd I'd much rather get rid of HA. It was okay in Cata when it synced up with wings but now it's not that fun any more due to the shorter duration and micromanagement. I'd rather get rid of it altogether and have our cds be GoAK and wings (3min cd), but give wings the unbreakable spirit treatment and let us lower the cd as our gear gets better. As a cooldown spec I think it makes sense for our cd use to scale with our gear.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7770
01/20/2013 06:43 PMPosted by Tonìc
Con: None.


this guy has jokes
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
It's useful for all specs though.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18840
theres a very simple way to buff sustained damage, in fact blizzard has done it before around DS.

-buff censure damage

-buff seal damage

-buff judgment damage

I still think TV needs to hit harder, but thats another issue. still, these are simple ways they can "dial up" sustained damage, regardless what level 75 talent you pick.


all those buffs would increase our burst damage. We do not need anymore burst.
TV already hits for 200K+ it's fine.
Edited by Thermadin on 1/20/2013 11:44 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
01/20/2013 06:43 PMPosted by Tonìc
I'm all for getting rid of GOAK, moving AW back to 2 min, and changing HA to 1 or 1.5min cd. I don't know anyone that actually likes our crappy pet.

Some raiders like GoAK because it helps our burst spike high, and burst can be very useful in PvE. But then there are PvE Rets who don't like the feel of spiking above and then crashing below.

In PvP, it switches targets too slowly, gets kited by instant mobility (Blink, Heroic Leap, etc), and adds to Swifty 1-shot macros. On top of this everyone knows Ret's sustained is a little low -- partly because we're forced to spec Holy Avenger due to the zergy nature of MoP PvP, but GoAK shares that blame.

The pros outweigh the cons for getting rid of this derpy angel.
Edited by Hafleur on 1/21/2013 12:22 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
13525
It absolutely should be made baseline, though probably at a reduced proc rate.

Those who hate it mostly seem to do so because of the role it served in Cata. But we aren't starved for holy power anymore. Now, when it procs it feels like what it always should have: a fun bonus.

Or keep the proc rate and tune down our burst cds slightly.
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90 Human Paladin
9970
all those buffs would increase our burst damage. We do not need anymore burst.
TV already hits for 200K+ it's fine.

Baseline DP would also buff burst damage. DP has no problems proccing during cooldowns.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8950
Personally I would rather see a buff to the DP talent allowing it more viability than see it brought back as a baseline ability. Bringing it back as baseline causes many balancing issues that I have not seen brought up in many of these threads, the first that comes to mind is our heals.

If DP was brought back as baseline this would mean our whole spec would have to be re balanced in PVP because we would have theoretical access to *% more WoGs. Our DMG would have to be re-adjusted in many ways, again because we would have access to *% more TVs/DSs. Not only that but if it did get brought back as baseline we would be either choosing to completely negate a lvl 75 talent for our selves or removing a lvl75 talent that works well for other paladin specs. I don't want to see those things happen.

If you want to see a Ret sustained DMG increase, I would have to go with Hafs idea of removing GoAK, reducing wings by a min, and putting the remaining DMG somewhere else (Personally I'd like to see it put into CS).

Don't make DP baseline, buff the DP talent OR Don't make us depend on crappy pet AI.
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90 Night Elf Monk
8430
I like it when I tank on my paladin because it helps to keep things interesting; aside from the avenger's shield proc, there really isn't anything to react to on prot. Helps out at lower gear levels before you stack haste, on ret. I'd agree having it baseline would be nice.

To keep it from giving paladin more burst when they don't need it, they could just make it so that it doesn't work while offensive CDs are active; i.e. when wings are up. Just make it something that helps smooth out damage between offensive CDs.
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90 Draenei Paladin
2795
I actually like my "pet"...there are some bugs as far as targeting goes, and the burst it gives us does make it difficult for the devs to raise our sustained without making our burst OP. How about they just reduce the ridiculousness of the strength buff of GoAK, take away the "explosion" when it ends, let us have our "pet" up all the time, and give it a pet action bar so we can control it. Perhaps they could reduce the effects of AW too, but just let us have it up all the time as well...that would pretty much fix our sustained damage as long as the changes work out to an overall dps increase, just with less burst.

I'm really indifferent on DP becoming baseline. If they keep the talents the way they are now, then they at least need to buff the % chance DP procs by ~5% to make it even with the others (as far as ret goes any ways).

As far as PvP, I'm not sure what the specific issues are that need to be addressed.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8950
01/21/2013 07:32 AMPosted by Baraktituz
I'm really indifferent on DP becoming baseline. If they keep the talents the way they are now, then they at least need to buff the % chance DP procs by ~5% to make it even with the others (as far as ret goes any ways).


Unfortunately buffing DP's proc rate by 5% would make it OP when compared to other the lvl75 talents, forcing other players (who may not want the talent) to take it, creating the inverse effect of what we have now where the players who want DP don't take it because of the dmg loss.

I propose making a different change to DP, I would buff it to 52.5% proc rate and stop it from procing off of itself. By increasing the proc chance to 50% and removing it's ability to proc off itself essentially evens out it's damage, while significantly reducing the glaring RNG issues. The additional 2.5% is to bring it in line with the other lvl75 talents.

Buffing DP to 52.5% and removing it's ability to proc off itself gives the players who want that pop and sustained dmg from DP. Brings it to the approximate power level of HA and SW, while reducing RNG and providing players more control over the proc.

01/21/2013 07:32 AMPosted by Baraktituz
As far as PvP, I'm not sure what the specific issues are that need to be addressed.


The issues faced in PVP relates directly to our survivability. PVP survivability is at it's best when it is reliable, as proven by the warrior talent Second Wind. Moving DP to baseline would mean our heals would have to be rebalanced around having *% more WoG's provided randomly. This would mean that many of those really nice survivability buffs we are getting in 5.2 would have to be reversed or revised.

Each of those buffs provide us with a significant advantage when compared to what we currently have specifically because they are either passive buffs (in the case of SS) or controlled buffs (in the case of SH and EF). Removing them or changing them to add a random factor into our survivability would be detrimental to our ability to compete in competitive play.
Edited by Fenrilight on 1/21/2013 8:39 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
18730
we need more glitter and rainbow animations this will fix all our problems trust me im a goblin engineer.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9220
I have to say that DP is the only choice to me. I know is not optimal, but i like to have procs.

IMO the problem in cata was not DP, it was that we were HP starved, so somethimes we were beging for DP to proc and do something. Now the HP generation is way better, so the extra procs feels more like a bonus than something I really need for doing my work.

On the other side i'm either helear or tank, never ret (even for questing)
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88 Blood Elf Warlock
0
I was originally one of those who disliked the RNG from DP, however in MOP I am not sure I feel the same way. Perhaps its the occasional large gaps where I if I get no procs I have nothing to do. The small RNG to reset Exorcism just doesn't feel like enough. I do worry though that if DP were baseline then TV would need to be reduced. This I do not want. I already feel like TV is weaker than it should be. At least compared to abilities I have used while leveling my non paladin alts.

My issue with our pet is that its most optimal use (talents aside) requires it to be brought out and then use CDs to match its timing. It feels like I have to waste part of the pets ability to get the most out of it. In PVP you cannot really get away with this delayed use as it is way too telegraphed which means it really is wasted. Personally I would like to see the pet do something like stand where I stand and always hit what I hit. Kind of just add an extra attack to yours with a really cool animation. Instead of adding Str gradually it should just add be a buff for its duration like make your TVs autocrit for 30 seconds or double your damage from mastery or something.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7310
theres a very simple way to buff sustained damage, in fact blizzard has done it before around DS.

-buff censure damage

-buff seal damage

-buff judgment damage

I still think TV needs to hit harder, but thats another issue. still, these are simple ways they can "dial up" sustained damage, regardless what level 75 talent you pick.


TV hits like a pudusy. I get 36k CRIT's without wings and trinket proc'd. With them up its more around 60k crits. which is PATHETIC. Ret's damage is highly laughable and whats even more laughable is our survivability and gap closing ability.
Even with the holy nerfs it will still be 500x better than ret next patch. Retribution in PvP is
D-E-A-D.
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