Retribution sustained dps in PvE

90 Draenei Paladin
2795
This is not a QQ for Ret, just hear me out.

We're viable in PvE, but not where many believe we deserve to be. I understand that our burst is on the high end, so the simple notion of just increasing the damage dealt by our CD's would just create another issue.

However, would it not be easy enough to simply increase the damage that Censure does...maybe let it ride up a few more stacks than just 5 (this way our max dps output takes even just a little longer to ramp up than it does now, making this change even less likely to affect our burst)? Nothing crazy, just enough to allow us to compete with the likes of Fury Warriors, Enhancement Shaman, and the other 15 specs above us right now.

Along with that, could we get Inquisition taken off the GCD too please? And if the devs reeeeally want to be nice, they could allow our seals to be in a separate GCD as well.

Literally, that is all we probably need at this point. Those changes would not really affect our Burst damage, considering my Censure ticks at 11k while I'm fully raid buffed...with crits perhaps in the mid-to-low 20k area.

I understand that we are currently "middle of the pack" when it comes to ranking based on spec alone. But if you look at it by class then Pallies, Rogues, and Priests are at the bottom of the barrel (http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/realistic-dps). In no way am I saying to ignore any other spec, it's just an obvious problem with a very easy solution.

Thank You.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
5620
Its fine if you want more sustained dps but you must know that your burst will be nerfed because of it.
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90 Draenei Paladin
2795
I'd like to think that the changes I proposed wouldn't make our burst really any stronger, just bring our sustained up to par.

Our burst is strong, but not OP by any means. If you're implying that we need to have burst be weak just to allow our sustained to be where it should be then that's preposterous.

Our burst is good when we pop our CD's...which is the way it should be. Since our class, like yours, is relegated to having only one spec for dmg, you have to have the burst and sustained capabilities built into one tree. That makes things a little harder for the devs, but I think they're clever enough to find a solution...especially if the community offers up well-thought and reasonable ideas to help themn accomplish just that.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12085
Asking for damage buffs aside, why do you want seals on a separate GCD? Do you have some need to change mid combat?

If we are talking about changing to SoI to heal, wouldn't that just lead to a macro that changes the seal before trying to cast a heal? If they did this, it would just make more sense to have the benefit be baseline.

Switching seals always costs dps unless you are looking to be able to roll Censure while using SoJ without losing a GCD. Which is the same thing as just asking for a buff to SoT.

Look I am all for asking for a reason to switch seals more often but I am not for mandatory macros.

Increasing the duration of Inq, lowering its cost, or giving some other proc a chance to refresh it I can see as reasonable requests. Removing it from the GCD doesn't make much sense to me. Are you going to mash it at the same time as a Judgement or Crusader Strike? Ret Paladins already have some wait time potential in their DPS cycle. Removing a item from the list won't really add anything of value. Asking to cast it less often or reduce the ramp up time for it (would love for PvP) would actually have an impact.
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90 Draenei Paladin
2795
Taking Inq off the GCD would allow us to get back onto our rotation that much faster in the middle of a boss fight. I have inq mapped to a mouse button so my keyboard hand can just focus on the other CD spells. Little things like that would help bring our dps up enough to notice, and it would help smooth out the rotation a tad (not that it's horrible right now, but the smoother the better). It's a small change, but in a skilled Ret's hands it will be a surefire dps boost without the devs having to mess with any numbers regarding our current arsenal (aside from the censure stacking buff I am suggesting).

As far as the seal bar having it's own GCD, in PvE, it would help transitioning from AoE to single target dps...IF the devs made SoR do more damage (as it stands now, it's not really worth wasting a GCD to switch to SoR from SoT for AoE pulls). For this, I would suggest SoR also applying a dot to targets as well, but the dot must hit for less than censure for obvious reasons.

But that's just my two cents...and it's not a huge deal to me personally to have our AoE dmg buffed right now. It would be nice and not necessarily unwarranted, but again that's just adding to the work the devs have cut out for them...and I would rather see our sustained PvE damage be addressed first.
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
21475
If you look at raidbots ret paladins are quite competitive with other melee dps. They are on the lower end however they are by no means non-viable or an active hindrance to a raid group.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12085
01/22/2013 12:35 PMPosted by Fierydemise
If you look at raidbots ret paladins are quite competitive with other melee dps. They are on the lower end however they are by no means non-viable or an active hindrance to a raid group.


Yeah I don't think anyone has gone to the Ret is trash QQ yet in the thread. Ill hold your post for later on when someone does!

As far as the seal bar having it's own GCD, in PvE, it would help transitioning from AoE to single target dps...IF the devs made SoR do more damage (as it stands now, it's not really worth wasting a GCD to switch to SoR from SoT for AoE pulls). For this, I would suggest SoR also applying a dot to targets as well, but the dot must hit for less than censure for obvious reasons.


Again, if (big if here) SoR was actually worth switching to in a AE situation and seals were on their own CD, wouldn't that just lead to a macro for HotR to change our seal for us? Like I said, I would endorse SoR being viable for more AE use but setting it up as a macroable switch I think is bad for the class. If it were the seal to use for multi target dps and switching seals was macroable blizzard would be better served doing away with the seal and just increasing AE damage in general.

I want my seal to be a choice with meaning. Right now it has little more meaning in saying hey look Im Ret or Im Holy. I want the change to be something I do as a result of a situation and to be conscious of the choice. Allowing seals to be instant macro swaps is the opposite of that.
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90 Human Paladin
10755
01/22/2013 09:56 AMPosted by Baraktituz
Along with that, could we get Inquisition taken off the GCD too please?


My first reaction when I read this was: "WTF?"

Why should Inq on or off the GCD be a thing? I genuinely don't see how it would change anything other than making when we cast it more trivial and allow us to be lazy. Unless that is what you are going for?
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90 Draenei Paladin
2795
01/22/2013 01:28 PMPosted by Ashrial
Along with that, could we get Inquisition taken off the GCD too please?


My first reaction when I read this was: "WTF?"

Why should Inq on or off the GCD be a thing? I genuinely don't see how it would change anything other than making when we cast it more trivial and allow us to be lazy. Unless that is what you are going for?


If I wanted to be lazy I would just ask for Inq to last longer...like a million other Rets have already (which is something I disagree with). Please refer to my second post as to why it would make sense having it off the GCD.

But honestly, even that isn't a really big deal. I think what we should be talking about is buffing censure to allow it to stack higher as the main solution to bringing up Ret's sustained damage in PvE without making our burst OP.

01/22/2013 12:35 PMPosted by Fierydemise
If you look at raidbots ret paladins are quite competitive with other melee dps. They are on the lower end however they are by no means non-viable or an active hindrance to a raid group.


Did you actually read what I wrote? I know we aren't so low that we are a hindrance to raid groups, and I am thankful for that (I raided in Vanilla and TBC as ret...I know what it's actually like to be laughed away from trying to join a group). However, is it too much to ask that we be brought up to par our counterparts?

The same can be said for Shadow priests and any of the Rogue specs according to Noxxic's "reaslistic" dps rankings, but I don't play those classes...so I am advocating for the one I do play.
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
21475
I missed this in your original post but please don't use the noxxic rankings. They are wrong and provably so, go look at raidbots notice what one of the top dps specs is on single target fights, assassination, a spec that noxxic has as the 2nd weakest spec in the game. That should be enough to make you question the accuracy of those rankings.
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90 Human Paladin
10755
As you suggested, I read your second post.

01/22/2013 12:33 PMPosted by Baraktituz
Taking Inq off the GCD would allow us to get back onto our rotation that much faster in the middle of a boss fight.


Inquisition is part of the rotation, just as Slice-N-Dice is part of a Rogue's rotation, and Savage Roar is part of a Feral Druid's. The fact that you see it as outside of the rotation is odd to me.

There was some discussion a while ago, when Inquisition was first introduced, that it felt like a very passive button to press, that there was no discernible payoff to pressing it (a sentiment I would agree with). Some people suggested making it do a small (to large) amount of damage, others wanted it gone all together.

It feels punitive to have to press Inquisition, and perhaps that is why you see it "outside" of the rotation even though it is a vital part of it. Maybe that punitive feeling is what needs to change. It doesn't feel as bad on a Druid (don't have a Rogue) because 1) it lasts a lot longer) and 2) Druids build CP's significantly faster with the aid of Crit.
Edited by Ashrial on 1/22/2013 2:32 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16285
I have to apologize for fiery thinking ret is fine, he raids with me. =P

But on a serious note, I fully expect a censure or 2H damage buff coming 5.2 just like they did with Firelands. Ret is 100% viable in 25H raids, but are still outclassed by multiple melee, especially with rogues getting smoke barrier. Ret does not completely outclass other melee when it comes to utility anymore.

Warriors have crit banner, demo banner, rallying cry, good cleave, and straight up more damage.

Death Knights have death grip, AMZ, Gorefiends/Remorseless, good burst not reliant on cds, good cleave, and once again more damage.

Rogues have tricks, smoke barrier, good cleave, and more damage.

Rets have hands, devotion aura, good burst with cooldowns.

Overall Rets just lack 5-10% sustained damage and a good cleave. We don't bring anything that you can't go without, as multiple top guilds have proven. IE: Blood Legion and Method who both use zero rets for progression.
Edited by Rùne on 1/22/2013 3:03 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12085
I mostly agree with what Ashrial is saying. However to take a step further, removing it doesn't really allow us to get back to our rotation as the OP views it. It still consumes Holy Power which is the actual cause of its punitive feel.

As I said before, unless you have perfect Art of War procs, Ret will have some open GCDs. I for one don't want more time waiting for CDs.

I also am not a fan of Censure stacking up higher than 5. in PVE this may be fine. In PVP more ramp up on a constantly target switching situation... no thank you.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12085
Posted by Fierydemise
If you look at raidbots ret paladins are quite competitive with other melee dps. They are on the lower end however they are by no means non-viable or an active hindrance to a raid group.


Yeah I don't think anyone has gone to the Ret is trash QQ yet in the thread. Ill hold your post for later on when someone does!


bringing in a guild member to say it is cheating. ;)
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90 Draenei Paladin
2795
Great discussion guys. Like I said the GCD skipping Inq was very minor in my book, and was just something I threw out to suggest as a very small change to help free up the rotation and possibly lead to a higher sustained dps output (along with a censure buff).

I also am not a fan of Censure stacking up higher than 5. in PVE this may be fine. In PVP more ramp up on a constantly target switching situation... no thank you.


I thought survivability was the big issue in PvP for ret...or rather survivability w/o costing it all of our dps output. Again, I was only thinking of ways to easily increase ret sustained without making our burst OP. If bliz left it at 5 stacks and just buffed the damage then I would be all for it. The higher stack idea was just to quell the potential whining about how a censure buff would make our burst OP...silly, I know.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
5620
Its fine if you want more sustained dps but you must know that your burst will be nerfed because of it.


this is a misconception, our burst isnt even that much higher than other classes, and then it drops like a rock.

that fury warrior over there with reck/avatar going? he's doing more than a ret I assure you.


pallys have one of the most highest burst in the game. GC even said he designed pally that way if you want to change pally design you will lose some of your burst plain and simple.
Edited by Turmoyl on 1/23/2013 12:40 AM PST
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10 Pandaren Shaman
10565
gonna drop this here as well:

just remove the stupid 20% health conditional on hammer of wrath and let us use it at any state of the enemy's health. this is the only change i feel ret needs. Hammer of wrath does not even hit THAT hard, with wings up and if the boss has bonus damage (wind lord, garalon's legs) ive only see it hit for 200k. factor in 35% ish mastery and its VERY week for an 'execute'.

one of the biggest reasons (i feel) that rets sustained is bad is because outside of (very) lucky strings of art of war procs, ret can never gcd cap. there will be times where you cant get an art of war proc, and you just used CS and judge and you have to sit there and wait up to 3.80 seconds with NOTHING to press, while other melee are gcd capped, so ret has that added annoyance of standing there doing nothing.

giving ret hammer of wrath with no restriction is the answer to raising sustained with out touching anything else. when used on cd youll be gaining a base of 10 more holy power per minute, thats 3 more TVs per minute.

and none of this "if ret gets a buff, it HAS to take a nerf somewhere" crap that ret has to go through every time. dont know why the devs have this "give and take" design philosophy with ret, but its kinda annoying. any time ret gets a buff, it has to take a nerf, and theres little to no net gain. also, no nerf to sanctified wrath, keep the 50% CD reduction to it while wings are up. SR is the only TRUE time ret is gcd capped, and what a coincidence, thats when ret's dmg looks like everyone eles's

TLDR; give ret the ability to use hammer of wrath at all times, its the weakest of all 'executes', so putting it into the standard rotation will even out those huge gaps in ret's rotation, getting us closer to gcd cap, generate 10 more HPs per min when used on cd, letting us do more finishers, raising sustained dmg. and ret will have to live without and execute, like enhance does
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