Retribution sustained dps in PvE

100 Blood Elf Paladin
18710
01/24/2013 11:02 PMPosted by Lobster
I'm with you on inquisition. Let me get this straight... our seals got reworked so we wouldn't constantly be re-applying a 30 second buff... and all these years later we have permanent seals, and yet another 30 second buff that has to be constantly re-applied. the circle of blizzard logic...

I truly do not understand how anyone can complain about Inq anymore. This isn't Cata, when Inq was legitimately a chore. In MoP we generate HP so fast that refreshing a very good holy damage and +10% flat crit buff twice a minute is hardly a sacrifice.

If there is one ability that could use a buff, it's TV.

No. TV damage is fine considering you can fire one off every couple of GCDs.


The duration of Inq is a little short, increasing it to a minute would patch things up nicely.
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90 Tauren Paladin
9375
I just wished they made Divine Purpose a base ability again. It would increase our sustained damage. Plus as of right now with Sanctified Wrath being the only choice if you want to compete in dps for most fights the class is very boring and seems require less and less skill since cata. Only thing you have to do now is watch inq timer and time your cooldowns.

Having Hammer of wrath usable would be nice solution too since as a rotation stand point it is almost impossible to screw up the priority system when your never really gcd capped outside of cooldowns.

I honestly wouldn't mind a nerf to our burst as long as they made our sustained better and more involved.

Sorry about the qq just tired of seeing classes getting dumbed down, but that seems the way wow is heading
Edited by Bumpinbull on 1/25/2013 2:05 AM PST
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90 Tauren Paladin
16365
I honestly don't know why people keep screaming for buffs in PvE, Ret is FINE

Nothing is wrong with Inquisition. It isn't clunky, it doesn't feel wrong, our priority doesn't need to be easier, it doesn't need a longer duration, it doesn't need to be off the GCD. If you are really that bad at managing it, pick up the glyph, pretty sure it is there for that reason. If there wasn't a penalty, that glyph would be mandatory.

We do NOT need Baseline DP, our spec has little RNG as is, There are other ways to balance us if need be if we even needed a boost. The talent would have to be re-designed, and it's fine as is. Let people that like DP/RNG take the talent, it's optional, doesn't need to be mandatory for the other billion paladins that hate it.

Stop asking for a crit change to HoW, it isn't needed, and hasn't been the case for several years. This change in particular would be even worse ( especially for PvP ) in current content.
In addition, Hammer of Wrath hits fine, it is NOT an execute ability, stop thinking it is. It is however, our hardest hitting HoPo generator, can be used at range, and still does decent damage. Why do some players think we are warriors?

People reallllllllly need to stop using Simcraft, ESPECIALLY Noxxic's version of "realistic dps" to judge how our performance is in PvE. Simcraft serves one useful purpose - getting your weights.

But seriously, stop asking for buffs that we don't need. We are still competitive, there is no reason we need to be top 5, and the disparity between the specs that are consistently ahead of us isn't large to begin with.
The only melee that I see on a consistent basis from parses with a pretty decent gap is Fury warriors, and Assassination Rogues/Combat rogues depending on the fight.

With this being said, Frost DKs are higher than us on some fights, only because of the mechanics of their class. For single target, Frost DKs, Enhancement shamans, Feral druids, Combat Rogues, Windwalker monks, and Ret paladins are pretty much on the same page for melee.
Unholy DKs, Subtlety Rogues, and Arms warriors are consistently below all of those, however, this is partly due to not having enough parses to evaluate, and well some specs just not being up to par, like Marksman.
Edited by Carbuncle on 1/25/2013 5:28 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
14125

I truly do not understand how anyone can complain about Inq anymore. This isn't Cata, when Inq was legitimately a chore. In MoP we generate HP so fast that refreshing a very good holy damage and +10% flat crit buff twice a minute is hardly a sacrifice.


The main problem with Inquisition is how long it takes to get a full 30 seconds up, compared to other classes who need ramp up. In PvE not a problem because what's 4-5 seconds to get Inquisition up? It's PvP that's the problem.

In PvP you run in and, nobody has ramp up. At least it seems that way. Warriors don't have it, cause Rage for ARMs is just something you don't need to do damage with, like it used to be. DKs don't have it, cause they have a plethora of abilities to apply dots instantly.

Those 4-5 seconds become crucial to winning or losing a fight. The only way to offset this is to get Holy Avenger and use it to get Inquisition up and produce damage. Which is why most Rets choose it. That or Divine Purpose, so at least when you get Inquisition up you have a small chance to be able to perform a TV as well.
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90 Worgen Warrior
11370
01/23/2013 05:48 PMPosted by Slant
Actually, WW is lower, but it's getting buffed in 5.2. I would try to move away from looking at the rankings and think about the spread. The median is around ~85 and Ret is at 82. So, a slight nudge upwards makes sense.


I think WW is a lot better than it appears. It's single target sustained is fantastic, and it's AoE is probably among the highest in the game. It has no cleave though. The only thing is that Windwalkers are more dependent on weapons than any class in the game. They scale incredibly well with them.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
The main problem with Inquisition is how long it takes to get a full 30 seconds up, compared to other classes who need ramp up. In PvE not a problem because what's 4-5 seconds to get Inquisition up? It's PvP that's the problem.

In PvP you run in and, nobody has ramp up. At least it seems that way. Warriors don't have it, cause Rage for ARMs is just something you don't need to do damage with, like it used to be. DKs don't have it, cause they have a plethora of abilities to apply dots instantly.

Those 4-5 seconds become crucial to winning or losing a fight. The only way to offset this is to get Holy Avenger and use it to get Inquisition up and produce damage. Which is why most Rets choose it. That or Divine Purpose, so at least when you get Inquisition up you have a small chance to be able to perform a TV as well.

Really the only times I have a problem with ramp-up is when a warrior starts the fight with Warbringer > one-shot macro, and warriors are being nerfed a lot next patch. Judgment has a sweet 40 yd range due our new 2pc. That's one holy power before a lot of classes can touch you. Then you take damage (one holy power from 4pc) and use your first GCD. There you go, free Inquisition.

I wouldn't mind seeing Inq returned to a 36 sec duration because a lot of it gets wasted as we sit in CC, which Ret sucks at breaking, but 30 sec is OK. We are holy power machines. o:)
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100 Draenei Shaman
5190
01/25/2013 08:59 AMPosted by Bladeletters
I think WW is a lot better than it appears. It's single target sustained is fantastic, and it's AoE is probably among the highest in the game. It has no cleave though.

There is no "better than it appears" with raidbots. Raidbots gets its data from actual in-game parses from worldoflogs.com. Its rankings are completely accurate.

There is selection bias, etc, which explains why WW is much worse in 10H than 25H. But that doesn't mean the 10H rankings aren't accurate-- they are.
Edited by Slant on 1/25/2013 9:43 AM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
2795
The main problem with Inquisition is how long it takes to get a full 30 seconds up, compared to other classes who need ramp up. In PvE not a problem because what's 4-5 seconds to get Inquisition up? It's PvP that's the problem.

In PvP you run in and, nobody has ramp up. At least it seems that way. Warriors don't have it, cause Rage for ARMs is just something you don't need to do damage with, like it used to be. DKs don't have it, cause they have a plethora of abilities to apply dots instantly.

Those 4-5 seconds become crucial to winning or losing a fight. The only way to offset this is to get Holy Avenger and use it to get Inquisition up and produce damage. Which is why most Rets choose it. That or Divine Purpose, so at least when you get Inquisition up you have a small chance to be able to perform a TV as well.

Really the only times I have a problem with ramp-up is when a warrior starts the fight with Warbringer > one-shot macro, and warriors are being nerfed a lot next patch. Judgment has a sweet 40 yd range due our new 2pc. That's one holy power before a lot of classes can touch you. Then you take damage (one holy power from 4pc) and use your first GCD. There you go, free Inquisition.

I wouldn't mind seeing Inq returned to a 36 sec duration because a lot of it gets wasted as we sit in CC, which Ret sucks at breaking, but 30 sec is OK. We are holy power machines. o:)


This thread is about PvE sustained damage, there are plenty of QQ threads about Ret PvP. Please go post in those or start another one of your own. Thank you.
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90 Draenei Paladin
2795
I honestly don't know why people keep screaming for buffs in PvE, Ret is FINE

Nothing is wrong with Inquisition. It isn't clunky, it doesn't feel wrong, our priority doesn't need to be easier, it doesn't need a longer duration, it doesn't need to be off the GCD. If you are really that bad at managing it, pick up the glyph, pretty sure it is there for that reason. If there wasn't a penalty, that glyph would be mandatory.

We do NOT need Baseline DP, our spec has little RNG as is, There are other ways to balance us if need be if we even needed a boost. The talent would have to be re-designed, and it's fine as is. Let people that like DP/RNG take the talent, it's optional, doesn't need to be mandatory for the other billion paladins that hate it.

Stop asking for a crit change to HoW, it isn't needed, and hasn't been the case for several years. This change in particular would be even worse ( especially for PvP ) in current content.
In addition, Hammer of Wrath hits fine, it is NOT an execute ability, stop thinking it is. It is however, our hardest hitting HoPo generator, can be used at range, and still does decent damage. Why do some players think we are warriors?

But seriously, stop asking for buffs that we don't need. We are still competitive, there is no reason we need to be top 5, and the disparity between the specs that are consistently ahead of us isn't large to begin with.
The only melee that I see on a consistent basis from parses with a pretty decent gap is Fury warriors, and Assassination Rogues/Combat rogues depending on the fight.

With this being said, Frost DKs are higher than us on some fights, only because of the mechanics of their class. For single target, Frost DKs, Enhancement shamans, Feral druids, Combat Rogues, Windwalker monks, and Ret paladins are pretty much on the same page for melee.
Unholy DKs, Subtlety Rogues, and Arms warriors are consistently below all of those, however, this is partly due to not having enough parses to evaluate, and well some specs just not being up to par, like Marksman.


My response to this is actually a question: What is your definition of "fine" ? And why can't Ret be a "top 5" ? Not that that's even what I was asking for when I started this thread, I just want us to be a closer to that "top 5" than we currently are now.

I agree with you in regards to all of the QQ'ers asking for major changes like having HoW to become an execute, or that we need DP baseline, etc. But a slight buff to Censure is absolutely warranted in my opinion...especially because it's a very simple solution to a real problem (not a major one). Either allow it to stack higher, or raise its base damage.

At the end of the day I am in general happy with how Ret has turned out in PvE this expansion, but I'm just calling it like I see it...and in PvE we deserve a sustained dps boost. Do I expect the devs to take notice AND make these changes?...probably not. However, it's still worth a shot by proposing the idea in the forums...that was until the real debate got neutered by the QQ crowd asking for ridiculous/broad sweeping changes like HoW all the time, DP at baseline, or TV to hit a lot harder. I actually thought by posting in the damage dealing forum it would weed out most of that...I guess it only delayed it by a day or two instead.

PvP is a whole other story from what I hear, but alas I do not engage in PvP. Therefore, I don't feel like it's appropriate for me to try advocating for those changes in this thread.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
This thread is about PvE sustained damage, there are plenty of QQ threads about Ret PvP. Please go post in those or start another one of your own. Thank you.

Sorry, but the point of the DDF is you have to examine an issue from all sides. How does a change impact other classes rather than just my own? Would a good PvP change adversely affect PvE (or vice versa)?

Judgebringer said Inq is fine in PvE, but not in PvP. I responded with why I believe it to be more or less fine in PvP. You can't control the entire flow of conversation just because you made the thread. No one whined (reread the two posts you quoted) or seriously derailed from the core discussion.
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88 Blood Elf Warlock
0
LOL Kia

I kinda disagree with the sentiment though. PvE Ret is fine. But I will elaborate. It is close enough to balanced that is should not have its throughput modified. Fine is not great it is not even the same as good. It just means acceptable.

For me the class doesn't feel as good as it should. I dislike a couple of mechanics. Its actual output is as balanced as I have ever seen it. The class scales well by all its stats so it shouldn't be in need of nerfing/buffing late in the expansion. If you discount the specs that have been identified as out of line, the top to bottom delta is pretty dang good.

I cannot justify asking for straight up buffs when I firmly believe that the cause of the perceived disparity is from a couple of other specs being improperly balanced. Get rid of the top and bottom offenders in raidbots and the distribution is pretty dang tight. Anytime someone says why cant I be in the top they are comparing themselves to the overpowered specs.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5190
01/25/2013 11:30 AMPosted by Sanctifiêd
the answer is so f'n obvious, I have no clue why blizzard hasnt buffed sustained damage yet. even ignoring survivability issues in pvp, it is CLEARLY an area that needs to be addressed.

It's not CLEARLY an issue, no. Ret isn't lagging far behind. It's well under 5% behind.
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100 Human Warrior
14705
01/25/2013 11:32 AMPosted by Slant
the answer is so f'n obvious, I have no clue why blizzard hasnt buffed sustained damage yet. even ignoring survivability issues in pvp, it is CLEARLY an area that needs to be addressed.

It's not CLEARLY an issue, no. Ret isn't lagging far behind. It's well under 5% behind.


Right. The 1-2% buff that would bring ret up to solid middle/upper middle in PVE would be basically unnoticeable in PVP. To increase PVP sustained pressure, cooldowns would need to be modified to compensate.
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100 Human Warrior
14705
01/25/2013 11:37 AMPosted by Sanctifiêd

It's not CLEARLY an issue, no. Ret isn't lagging far behind. It's well under 5% behind.


fury, affliction, assassination, in nice terms....crap on ret right now. it isnt that close.


Why don't you tell us again how you hit for 1000 damage with TV. Your constant whining, moaning, and hyperbole makes it so nobody takes you seriously.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5190
01/25/2013 11:37 AMPosted by Sanctifiêd
fury, affliction, assassination, in nice terms....crap on ret right now. it isnt that close.

The difference is that you're comparing Ret's performance to the very top performers, while I'm comparing it to the middle of the pack.

You can easily justify being buffed to the middle of the pack. Being buffed to beat affliction, not so much.
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