Retribution sustained dps in PvE

100 Blood Elf Paladin
9935


Why don't you tell us again how you hit for 1000 damage with TV. Your constant whining, moaning, and hyperbole makes it so nobody takes you seriously.


TV isnt really the problem, it's that the spec is balanced (poorly) around dps cooldowns.

sure, we burst well for the first 20 seconds of a fight. but after that? even with good levels of haste we dont match up with other melee/ranged for sustained damage.

sustained, objectively, is weak compared to other classes. and our burst isnt as OP as some would suggest. that being said, there are very simple ways to buff sustained (like censure) without redesigning the spec (which isnt necessary at all).


I feel that you are severely misinformed. At what level of PVE are you playing? Where is this evidence? could we see your main to see if something is wrong? some logs?

You act like ret is such a garbage spec, unplayable almost, but it is not so. ret is competitive right now. If you are being beaten by other dps, it is because they are playing a better game than you are. You should seek your own weaknesses and fix them, rather than moan to others about how you are bad because the spec is bad. Most people in here play ret too, and we have personal experience of how well ret can perform. Things aren't matching up.

Even your comparisons to other specs are not very accurate. what classes do you play?

I just don't see where you are basing these complaints from.
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90 Tauren Paladin
16365

My response to this is actually a question: What is your definition of "fine" ? And why can't Ret be a "top 5" ? Not that that's even what I was asking for when I started this thread, I just want us to be a closer to that "top 5" than we currently are now.

I agree with you in regards to all of the QQ'ers asking for major changes like having HoW to become an execute, or that we need DP baseline, etc. But a slight buff to Censure is absolutely warranted in my opinion...especially because it's a very simple solution to a real problem (not a major one). Either allow it to stack higher, or raise its base damage.

At the end of the day I am in general happy with how Ret has turned out in PvE this expansion, but I'm just calling it like I see it...and in PvE we deserve a sustained dps boost. Do I expect the devs to take notice AND make these changes?...probably not. However, it's still worth a shot by proposing the idea in the forums...that was until the real debate got neutered by the QQ crowd asking for ridiculous/broad sweeping changes like HoW all the time, DP at baseline, or TV to hit a lot harder. I actually thought by posting in the damage dealing forum it would weed out most of that...I guess it only delayed it by a day or two instead.

PvP is a whole other story from what I hear, but alas I do not engage in PvP. Therefore, I don't feel like it's appropriate for me to try advocating for those changes in this thread.


I say Ret is fine, because well... it is fine in PvE, there are a few fights in particular Ret does exceptionally well, and there are a few fights where it lags behind, pretty much the case with any spec.
My responses were mostly aimed at the ridiculous paladins ( in this thread ) and elsewhere that keep suggesting that HoW be an execute, DP being baseline is a good idea, and that Inquisition needs reworked. This is absolutely silly.

With plenty of haste, and a decent weapon, sustained damage is pretty okay, but obviously, cooldowns have always been a bit tied to Ret more so than other classes, so our sustained does suffer a tad. A minor buff, and I do say minor buff to censure seems reasonable.
I think most people that say that sustained damage is bad are either gear starved, or they really are just.... bad.

Overall, on a fight to fight comparison ( even with raidbots ) Ret is pretty much dead middle, and people keep comparing it to Affliction.

Many paladins keep looking at just the dps output too, and the fact is, for at least current tier our utility has plenty of use, and it is noticeable on the majority of the fights this tier.
It can be argued that why bring a Ret paladin when a Holy / Prot paladin brings the same exact thing. We run with a Holy and a Ret, and I have no complaints about the utility we can dish out.
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90 Tauren Paladin
9375
No, it wouldn't. Counting on RNG to improve your sustained DPS is a phenomenally stupid idea and one that was already proven unreliable in Cata. The people who propose this idea don't know how DPS mechanics work.


There is tons of specs that rely on procs to increase their dps i don't see it as a bad thing just another thing to watch plus exo is a proc now i dont see rets complaining about that

01/25/2013 03:49 AMPosted by Lobster
All 3 choices are viable since you're not going to have the same uptime on every boss.


Yes viable but there on almost all bosses sanctified wins out

01/25/2013 03:49 AMPosted by Lobster
If you think a baseline DP allowing you to maybe hit TV a few more times suddenly raises the skillcap then I am very sorry to tell you otherwise.


So a random proc that changes your priority on your next ability to use when you have to pay attention and only have a split second to decide what to hit next. Where the choice you make can be a dps increase or decrease does not require more skill? i guess if you have a addon that tells you what ability to used next i guess your right but whats the fun of something playing the game for you

01/25/2013 03:49 AMPosted by Lobster
The answer you're looking for is "haste."


how much haste do you need i have 8.5k do i need to hit the 10k marker cause i still have times where i wait 1-2 secs before i have a ability to use

Ret is more complex today than it ever was so I don't know what you mean by this.
I'm not sure you have much experience with this spec.


I dont have much exp with ret compared to most only played in cata and mop and for me ret was more difficult then to keep up with the top dps because of DP proc and only able to store 3 hp and keeping up inq. With the way hp generation is now inq is almost a non factor just need to refresh when it is below 3 secs.
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90 Worgen Warrior
11370
01/25/2013 09:37 AMPosted by Slant
I think WW is a lot better than it appears. It's single target sustained is fantastic, and it's AoE is probably among the highest in the game. It has no cleave though.

There is no "better than it appears" with raidbots. Raidbots gets its data from actual in-game parses from worldoflogs.com. Its rankings are completely accurate.

There is selection bias, etc, which explains why WW is much worse in 10H than 25H. But that doesn't mean the 10H rankings aren't accurate-- they are.


You have to analyze how classes work beyond just looking at a quick snapshot of current raid content. Monks have terrific sustained single target DPS and amazing AoE. They have very little burst and no cleave. They are extremely dependent on weapon DPS, and for some stupid reason Blizzard decided to make one of their major damaging abilities a melee'd channeled/stand-still cast.

They could use some changes, and I think some of the ones they are getting are justified. They are getting a cleave. They are getting a DPS cooldown, but I don't think they've done anything with fists of fury. Though they are improving their secondary stat scaling a bit if I remember right.

Look at Heroic Garajal 25 man 90th percentile
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Gara'jal_the_Spiritbinder/25H/all/14/60/p90/
top 5 DPS

How about Heroic Feng 25 man 90th percentile
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Feng_the_Accursed/25H/all/14/60/p90/
top 5 DPS

Lei Shi 25H 90th percentile
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Lei_Shi/25H/all/14/60/p90/
top 4 DPS

Tsulong 25H 90th percentile
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Tsulong/25H/all/14/60/p90/
top 4 DPS

Obviously there are others that they struggle in. Mostly fights that burst DPS shines on, or cleave shines on. So they could use some changes but this tier favor the cleaving/bursty classes a bit more.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16285
Ret just needs a 5-10% sustained dps increase and better scaling and we're golden.
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100 Human Warrior
14525
01/25/2013 10:47 PMPosted by Rùne
Ret just needs a 5-10% sustained dps increase and better scaling and we're golden.


If you want to compete with Affliction, sure.

All you really need is 1-2%, and your scaling is fine.
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90 Human Paladin
14125
People here need to understand that no sustained dps increase will be given unless our burst damage is lowered. Specifically one of our cool downs needs a nerf. Which is very difficult, since a lot of our cool downs are unified with Holy and Prot.

So there isn't any easy way to do this. Nerf Avenging Wrath, which is already an annoying 3 minute cool down. Maybe remove the ability to use Hammer of Wrath, but lower it down to 2 minutes? But that might make Holy Avenger a clear choice over Sanctified Wrath?

We could nerf Guardian of Ancient Kings, but that's an already too long of a cool down. Could make it so we get half the benefit of GoAK, but the cool down would be lowered to 2.5 minutes instead of 5?

We could talk about the 10 different ways to buff Ret sustained, but first things first, we need our burst nerfed.
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90 Tauren Paladin
7045
In pve we are way behind warrior and dk.. its so stupid.. we were actually more balanced in Cataclysm.. Warrior DK and ret pally were around the same DPS / DMG done... on most raid boss now Dk does like 20 - 30 k more dps than us.. what the fuk with the burst.. when the cooldown been used we hit like wet noodles.
Edited by Xooshianni on 1/26/2013 4:59 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13950
01/26/2013 11:10 AMPosted by Judgebringer
People here need to understand that no sustained dps increase will be given unless our burst damage is lowered.


If everyone was putting out the same damage I'd agree, but they're not. We're not at the top, at best we're midpack so a buff to sustained would not tower us over other classes unless they went overboard with the buff. Until they bring down the top specs and the damage potential between classes is closer I don't see a problem with us getting a buff to sustained while all else remains equal.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
9935
01/26/2013 04:59 PMPosted by Xooshianni
In pve we are way behind warrior and dk.. its so stupid.. we were actually more balanced in Cataclysm.. Warrior DK and ret pally were around the same DPS / DMG done... on most raid boss now Dk does like 20 - 30 k more dps than us.. what the fuk with the burst.. when the cooldown been used we hit like wet noodles.


Oh man you're doing something wrong.
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90 Human Paladin
13525
We slightly behind, perhaps, but in the same ballpark. 20-30k? You're doing something wrong. Did you equip your weapon?

That said, Fury warriors are going to be beating everyone by a significant margin soon with the way crit effects them.
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90 Draenei Warrior
14695
We slightly behind, perhaps, but in the same ballpark. 20-30k? You're doing something wrong. Did you equip your weapon?

That said, Fury warriors are going to be beating everyone by a significant margin soon with the way crit effects them.


Oh, don't worry about that. I'm sure we'll be experinicing numerous "bug fixes" shortly after all the heroic raiders have their world firsts and BIS gear.
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90 Tauren Paladin
7100
01/23/2013 12:39 AMPosted by Turmoyl
GC even said he designed pally that way if you want to change pally design you will lose some of your burst plain and simple.


I don't know about you but I don't trust whatever that man says at all. He uses numbers and not game testing.

Yes we may spike up but I will assure you a DK and Fury warrior will do WAY more damage then a ret in any given situation. Our burst should be strong but when those two classes are spiking very high in PvE there's something we rets are questioning.

Maybe they are the problem... but if they are where are their nerfs... we don't see them so it is to question. Are we fine and all?

Fury as one of the hardest hitting ability in the game in execute when used in SMF and they can spam that at 20% health and below. I assure you a ret blowing all CD won't even come close to the damage that does. If he thinks he designed us for burst I think he did a pretty crappy job at it.
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100 Draenei Paladin
18570
01/25/2013 11:44 AMPosted by Sanctifiêd
TV isnt really the problem, it's that the spec is balanced (poorly) around dps cooldowns.


There's a bit more to it than that. Our dps has a large chunk of it reliant on how full your usage of Avenging Wrath and Guardian of the Ancient Kings. Every 3(2 with t14) and 5 minutes your dps is made or broken, and the rest is mostly upkeep until your next cooldown cycle.

Specifically, it revolves around full usage of Hero/BL, and just how much burst we can plug into that small window. The haste scaling during that window is massive, and the interaction of our two big cds with that buff.

In particular, GotAK is probably the biggest culprit for our otherwise low burst outside of CDs. Not AW. The damage bump we get from it is incredibly high. And that much damage sitting on a cooldown you only get to use once or twice a fight is not fun. It'd be much better if it provided some sort of group utilty and we had that damage baked into TV and DS.
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90 Worgen Warrior
11370
We slightly behind, perhaps, but in the same ballpark. 20-30k? You're doing something wrong. Did you equip your weapon?

That said, Fury warriors are going to be beating everyone by a significant margin soon with the way crit effects them.


From what I saw earlier, Affliction and Fire appear to scale a lot better than we do.
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100 Draenei Paladin
16270
I simply do not like the current Retribution DPS rotation because of the frantic few seconds of very powerful damage is too offset by the several minutes of weak damage while the CDs come back up.

It's A) depressing when you see how easily most players can beat you in damage when you dont have any CDs available, B) bad design from a PvP standpoint because of how easily our burst can be controlled thru CC particularly since we don't have any true CC breaks besides a 5 min CD, and C) too narrow a playstyle that can work well in very specific situations but mediocre in most others because of a lack of consistent damage flexibility.

Personally, I hate GoAK. HATE IT. It's too powerful a CD and just another button to syncronize with AW/HA/Trinkets to attain very powerful CD burst for a few sec before leaving us with mediocre sustained damage while we wait those next couple of min. I would much rather the spell proper be reworked as something other than a DPS CD, certain aspects of it implemented to a lesser degree into abilities like AW, and some of the damage tacked into standard attacks such as CS/TV etc.

I'd much rather tack some of the damage into Censure and TV so our sustained is closer to what other melee classes can bring outside of CDs; if that means the loss of GoAK as a DPS CD I'm FINE with that. We already have too many DPS CDs as it is, it's simply not fun to be a 3 min cannon.

One idea I'd LOVE would be for the GoAK visual to replace the AW wings so we could be the Guardian when we pop AW, having it as a psuedo pet never made much sense to me.
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