Is 10% Enough To Fix Resto Druids In 5.2?

90 Worgen Druid
11990
Also, by using your same measure in the larger raid formats, trying to bring 3 druids to some of the most healing intensive fights in this tier would have held back, or even stopped progression. There were multiple fights where our Monk, Priests, or even Shaman/Paladins could do the job of 1.5 druids (more like 1.25 for S/P) , and when meeting DPS checks and 4-5 healing, the healer you bring is hugely important.


Which fights would bringing more than 1 Resto Druid have held the raid back? IIRC, hasn't Method been bringing two Resto Druids to all their world firsts?

I've raided with a Resto Druid and they are more than capable at keeping up, if slightly behind on fights that allow them to be sniped easily (especially by a Disc Priest). Certainly, their throughput feels sufficiently competent to complete any content this tier, even on fights that require the bare minimum of healers.


First, I said 3, as Fluers was discussing using 2-3 healers in 10-man, with mostly Druids. It was in comparison to that and doing the same thing in 25-man. Though it actually would have to be more like 4 to be proportional, but that would be a bit silly.

Second, you are using Method and their Healing officer, Owld, as an example. While our druids often rank very high, and often top 10's and 20s, he is usually the top rank (at least legit one) by a good margin. Point being, he is not just your average, or even really good druid, he is generally the best...

Third, remember, I said progression. On the very next kill this probably becomes less important. And on farm afterwards, with even slightly more gear, matters very little. But when you are in that initial 25-100 attempts, and first kill, it is more critical.

Examples:

Garalon: 3 druids on Garalon would have been rough, we used 1. Both our druids were roughly at 80k, and ranking top ten at the time. But our Monk was at 140, shamans at 115 and everyone else 100+. This fight is straight forward, your raids total HPS is a large component to how many attempts it takes to down it.

Garajal: Being a 4 healer fight, healer choice was critical. We actually brought a single druid on purpose to use the PVP set and ironbark to get the Voodoo tank, as it was earlier in the gear curve and was not a big ilvl drop. Druids are somewhat stronger on this fight during the initial 3/4, but lagged when damage is more widespread at the end. During the last few minutes of the fight the other classes were significantly stronger. 2-3 druids would have not been possible. As a note, Method brought only brought Owld.

Honestly I could go on... but my wall O' text is big enough already. Many fights were similar, only couple really did not matter. I would say we are pretty strong on Protectors (it fits SOTF perfectly), And Empress due to sustainability and solid tank healing on retreats. Some other fights were not very difficult to begin with, so it matters less, such as Lei Shi, Windlord, etc..
Edited by Fangthorn on 1/30/2013 5:45 AM PST
Reply Quote


For one, druids aren't 10-15% behind other healers right now. Druids and shaman are neck and neck, so no, it isn't the same at all.

I thought Druids were behind by about 10%; where are you getting this "fact"?
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Second, you are using Method and their Healing officer, Owld, as an example. While our druids often rank very high, and often top 10's and 20s, he is usually the top rank (at least legit one) by a good margin. Point being, he is not just your average, or even really good druid, he is generally the best...

Third, remember, I said progression. On the very next kill this probably becomes less important. And on farm afterwards, with even slightly more gear, matters very little. But when you are in that initial 25-100 attempts, and first kill, it is more critical.


I think it's a fallacy to think that Method doesn't have access to equally skilled healers across the various specs. The fact that Method deemed it fit to bring 2 Resto Druids to most of their world first progression really points to the fact that Resto Druids are viable in 25 man progression. In fact, 2/5 of their healers on their Heroic Sha kill were Resto Druids.

The argument is not whether Resto Druids are optimal, especially when compared to other healers. The point is, whilst Druids may be lagging behind currently, they still have the necessary tools and throughput to be a decent contribution to any roster.

I may not have played my Resto Druid much this tier, but my general feeling is that sustained healing outside of raid CDs feels slightly constrained. However, when it comes to actual portions of fights when a healer's throughput can dictate a wipe or kill (i.e. execution errors or boss abilities), Restos have more than adequate raid CDs to deal with them.

The fact that you're receiving a 10% boost to healing and a reduction to Rejuv's cost should be sufficient, especially in light of Disc's diminished ability to shield extreme amounts of damage.
Edited by Ceddya on 1/30/2013 6:20 AM PST
Reply Quote
5 Human Warlock
0
Second, you are using Method and their Healing officer, Owld, as an example. While our druids often rank very high, and often top 10's and 20s, he is usually the top rank (at least legit one) by a good margin. Point being, he is not just your average, or even really good druid, he is generally the best...

Third, remember, I said progression. On the very next kill this probably becomes less important. And on farm afterwards, with even slightly more gear, matters very little. But when you are in that initial 25-100 attempts, and first kill, it is more critical.


I think it's a fallacy to think that Method doesn't have access to equally skilled healers across the various specs. The fact that Method deemed it fit to bring 2 Resto Druids to most of their world first progression really points to the fact that Resto Druids are viable in 25 man progression. In fact, 2/5 of their healers on their Heroic Sha kill were Resto Druids.

The argument is not whether Resto Druids are optimal, especially when compared to other healers. The point is, whilst Druids may be lagging behind currently, they still have the necessary tools and throughput to be a decent contribution to any roster.

I may not have played my Resto Druid much this tier, but my general feeling is that sustained healing outside of raid CDs feels slightly constrained. However, when it comes to actual portions of fights when a healer's throughput can dictate a wipe or kill (i.e. execution errors or boss abilities), Restos have more than adequate raid CDs to deal with them.

The fact that you're receiving a 10% boost to healing and a reduction to Rejuv's cost should be sufficient, especially in light of Disc's diminished ability to shield extreme amounts of damage.


In my experience it's just the opposite. Given enough gear, say > 500 ilvl, sustained healing becomes much more viable. It's responding to the oh crap imminent wipe moments where we are weak since we only have one good CD in tranquility. Our other CDs are good for dealing with known burst situations but not for handling sudden imminent wipe situations. That is mainly because we have no sudden burst AoE tools. That said, we are terrific at helping to stabilize dire situations while others use their tools to bring up the raid as a whole.
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Druid
11990
Second, you are using Method and their Healing officer, Owld, as an example. While our druids often rank very high, and often top 10's and 20s, he is usually the top rank (at least legit one) by a good margin. Point being, he is not just your average, or even really good druid, he is generally the best...

Third, remember, I said progression. On the very next kill this probably becomes less important. And on farm afterwards, with even slightly more gear, matters very little. But when you are in that initial 25-100 attempts, and first kill, it is more critical.


I think it's a fallacy to think that Method doesn't have access to equally skilled healers across the various specs. The fact that Method deemed it fit to bring 2 Resto Druids to most of their world first progression really points to the fact that Resto Druids are viable in 25 man progression. In fact, 2/5 of their healers on their Heroic Sha kill were Resto Druids.

The argument is not whether Resto Druids are optimal, especially when compared to other healers. The point is, whilst Druids may be lagging behind currently, they still have the necessary tools and throughput to be a decent contribution to any roster.

I may not have played my Resto Druid much this tier, but my general feeling is that sustained healing outside of raid CDs feels slightly constrained. However, when it comes to actual portions of fights when a healer's throughput can dictate a wipe or kill (i.e. execution errors or boss abilities), Restos have more than adequate raid CDs to deal with them.

The fact that you're receiving a 10% boost to healing and a reduction to Rejuv's cost should be sufficient, especially in light of Disc's diminished ability to shield extreme amounts of damage.


I do not know if you are just avoiding actually reading my post, or just being stubborn, but it was clearly about using more than two druids, in response to Fluers post. At some point replacing other stronger healers makes progression more difficult. That was my overall point. Additionally, I actually did provide examples which you conveniently ignored...

As I have said before, we have had two druids on our roster this whole tier, just like Method, so I am very aware that we are, as you put it, "decent" or viable, to use. .

Also, looking at Vigil's logs I see nothing that shows you prefer to use Druids on progression. Actually, it look like you excluded druids or use them as minimally as possible throughout this tier. Actions speak far louder than words; you can claim everything you want about how strong you think druids are, but when it came to your own healing core, you mostly excluded them.

You only had a single druid on 2/4 of the ToeS fights, whic is actually our strongest raid this tier. You excluded druids for the two DPS checks, Sha and Protectors, and the single druid you used on Tsulong was last by a wide margin. So sorry if I think your assumption that swapping in more Druids would have no effect, is just a bit..... disingenuous.

Your own guild obviously actively chooses to use other healers over druids... You have many fights without a single druid, and tend to focus on using shamans, priests and monks... big surprise.

As for the 10% buff and other changes, I have never said that would not be enough, and I am satisfied with the balance changes at the moment in combination with having brought Monks, and now Priests, to more reasonable levels. I have only been responding to people who continue to insist that druids are currently "fine" or I guess by your interpretation "decent", whatever that is supposed to mean...
Edited by Fangthorn on 1/30/2013 11:29 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
I do not know if you are just avoiding actually reading my post, or just being stubborn, but it was clearly about using more than two druids. If you forget, I was responding to another persons point about using mostly druids.... At some point replacing other stronger healers with druids would hurt progression, additionally, I actually did provide examples which you conveniently ignored...


You're right, I missed that part.

I'm looking at the max HPS that Resto Druids are capable of in your examples listed and they seem to have met the necessary benchmark that was required for progression. So no, I disagree that having 3 Resto Druids would have hindered progression.

As for Gara'jal specifically, I see absolutely no reason why having 3 Resto Druids should have hindered progression. There's Ironbark for the tank and 3 raid CDs to cycle through for the last 20%. Druid output wasn't that far behind to have failed the healing requirements sub 20%.

Still, stacking more than two of any healers for progression could have hurt progression too, and it isn't an issue that's limited to Druids or an extension of Druid's current issues. 3 Disc Priests on single tank fights would see them having mana issues due to being unable to proc Rapture efficiently whilst 3 Holy Priests would mean less focused healing on certain groups due to the range/group restriction os PoH.

Druids are decent in the sense that they're not broken or unviable right now.
Edited by Ceddya on 1/30/2013 11:32 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
In my experience it's just the opposite. Given enough gear, say > 500 ilvl, sustained healing becomes much more viable. It's responding to the oh crap imminent wipe moments where we are weak since we only have one good CD in tranquility. Our other CDs are good for dealing with known burst situations but not for handling sudden imminent wipe situations. That is mainly because we have no sudden burst AoE tools. That said, we are terrific at helping to stabilize dire situations while others use their tools to bring up the raid as a whole.


To be fair, most classes only have one reactive raid CD like Tranq, and NV+ToL serves as decent CDs when it comes to reacting to unexpected spikes in damage.

As you've said though, rolling Rejuvs after said burst works amazingly at stabilizing the raid.
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Druid
11990
01/30/2013 11:29 AMPosted by Ceddya
I do not know if you are just avoiding actually reading my post, or just being stubborn, but it was clearly about using more than two druids. If you forget, I was responding to another persons point about using mostly druids.... At some point replacing other stronger healers with druids would hurt progression, additionally, I actually did provide examples which you conveniently ignored...


You're right, I missed that part.

I'm looking at the max HPS that Resto Druids are capable of in your examples listed and they seem to have met the necessary benchmark that was required for progression. So no, I disagree that having 3 Resto Druids would have hindered progression.

As for Gara'jal specifically, I see absolutely no reason why having 3 Resto Druids should have hindered progression. There's Ironbark for the tank and 3 raid CDs to cycle through for the last 20%. Druid output wasn't that far behind to have failed the healing requirements sub 20%.

Still, stacking more than two of any healers for progression could have hurt progression too, and it isn't an issue that's limited to Druids or an extension of Druid's current issues. 3 Disc Priests on single tank fights would see them having mana issues due to being unable to proc Rapture efficiently whilst 3 Holy Priests would mean less focused healing on certain groups due to the range/group restriction os PoH.

Druids are decent in the sense that they're not broken or unviable right now.


You reference Max HPS. As I said, we were at 80K and ranking top ten during Garalon progression. Our other healers were all over 100k, with Shamans at 115K and Monks at 130-140K. This pattern, though not as dramatic, was the same across many of the more intense fights, with Priests taking the top spot in 5.1, with all other classes dropping a bit from the absorb factor.

Are you really saying that you think swapping in druids would not have made a difference when even the closes classes are 20% ahead?

And from my previous post:

Also, looking at Vigil's logs I see nothing that shows you prefer to use Druids on progression. Actually, it look like you excluded druids or use them as minimally as possible throughout this tier. Actions speak far louder than words; you can claim everything you want about how strong you think druids are, but when it came to your own healing core, you mostly excluded them.

You only had a single druid on 2/4 of the ToeS fights, whic is actually our strongest raid this tier. You excluded druids for the two DPS checks, Sha and Protectors, and the single druid you used on Tsulong was last by a wide margin. So sorry if I think your assumption that swapping in more Druids would have no effect, is just a bit..... disingenuous.

Your own guild obviously actively chooses to use other healers over druids... You have many fights without a single druid, and tend to focus on using shamans, priests and monks... big surprise.
Edited by Fangthorn on 1/30/2013 11:40 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
01/30/2013 04:11 AMPosted by Fangthorn
You really need to stop shifting to 10-mans Fluers. Very few, if any, have been arguing that druids need help in that format. At this point I cant help but feel like you are purposely doing so to just cloud the issue.

I was simply making an example, Fangthorn...............................................................................

01/30/2013 12:07 AMPosted by Fleurs
Resto is fully capable of meeting the higher standard

Maybe I should have worded it differently so you didn't take it so literally but I thought you would have understood my point.

01/30/2013 04:11 AMPosted by Fangthorn
But to adress your point, by using your same measure in the larger raid formats, trying to bring 3 druids to some of the most healing intensive fights in this tier would have held back, or even stopped progression.

I don't even understand where you're getting the idea that you should bring so many druids, or that I somehow implied that. I can only assume you got it from when I said

01/30/2013 12:07 AMPosted by Fleurs
Resto is not in a place where we can't complete content even if we have a less than optimal group setup.

And what I meant by that was not necessarily by stacking druids, because there's little point in doing that with any other healer to begin with (with the exception of certain fights where one excels 100x more than the other).

In the end, I think you truly believe resto is in a worse place than it is. I can't explain why that's the case. All I know is that resto is not bad like some people seem to think, and these changes will hopefully put us in a better place because of the glaring gaps in our toolset.
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Druid
11990
I think you have no personal experience in the format I heal, and where the larger problem is, that's why you can't explain it.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
You reference Max HPS. As I said, we were at 80K and ranking top ten during progression. Our other healers were all over 100k, with Shamans at 115K and Monks at 130-140K

Are you really saying that you think swapping in druids would not have made a difference?

Just gotta comment on this, maybe I'm just reading this out of context but you do realize HPS is not the only thing druids bring to the raid now? We are now one of the biggest utility classes.

01/30/2013 11:38 AMPosted by Fangthorn
I think you have no personal experience in the format I heal, and where the larger problem is, that's why you can't explain it.

Or maybe you are just melodramatic and overexaggerate?
Edited by Fleurs on 1/30/2013 11:39 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Druid
11990
Please tell me exactly what utility I bring to a fight like Garalon that is better than 20-60k HPS?

Maybe you are just wrong and stubborn?
Edited by Fangthorn on 1/30/2013 11:41 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
Please tell me exactly what utility I bring to a fight like Garalon that is better than 20-60k HPS?

Maybe you are just wrong and stubborn?

...That's not even fair, Fangthorn, because you're picking probably the only fight where druids aren't doing great on- when they should- simply because of the gaps in our toolset, which is what is being changed for us in the next patch. That's pretty funny that you're trying to argue with that.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Mage
17070
Please tell me exactly what utility I bring to a fight like Garalon that is better than 20-60k HPS?

Maybe you are just wrong and stubborn?


To be honest, you kind of come off as the stubborn one in this conversation.

For example, I really can't fathom why, just a couple of posts above, you devoted paragraph after paragraph responding to Fleurs in order to demonstrate that, in the very tiny number of high end, heroic 25 person raiding guilds, they were not bringing *more* than two druids. Really, it was clear that Fleurs was never arguing otherwise. And then you say in that same post:

"As for the 10% buff and other changes, I have never said that would not be enough, and I am satisfied with the balance changes at the moment in combination with having brought Monks, and now Priests, to more reasonable levels."

It's not even clear what it is you are disagreeing about.
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Druid
11990
It is very similar on many fights. "To be fair" , then OK, 15-30K DPS on fights like Stone, Feng, Protectors, Empress.. etc..etc..

I think you will find almost all the utility we bring can be covered, or is already brought by other classes/specs in 25-mans... and even if it wasn't

And maybe you have not been following, but I am confident in and satisfied with the changes that are already in the PTR. I am only here arguing with your little buddy Sensations and other people who can not stop themselves from insisting there was never really a problem to begin with,
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Druid
11990
It's not even clear what it is you are disagreeing about.


This is the theme of almost every druid thread.

This conversation goes longer than this thread, the same people have been posting for months on the topic and it is just continuing here. As it obviously can get a little... confusing.

And yes, I am stubborn. I will admit that.
Edited by Fangthorn on 1/30/2013 12:10 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Orc Shaman
HC
16460
I am only here arguing with your little buddy Sensations and other people who can not stop themselves from insisting there was never really a problem to begin with,


Where did we insist there was never a problem? I understand reading comprehension varies from person to person but I already explained the variable I used in the term fine but you seem to keep changing it to support your argument. Just stop.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
01/30/2013 12:05 PMPosted by Fangthorn
I am only here arguing with your little buddy Sensations and other people who can not stop themselves from insisting there was never really a problem to begin with,

There really wasn't a huge problem with us to begin with, though. Like I've said a ridiculous amount of times, our mana issues needed a fix, and it was temporarily fixed with the 2pc. Upon getting that, life as a resto druid has been immensely easier and I find that the gaps I couldn't fill with other spells are now filled with rejuv, since there's nothing else. That isn't necessarily an implication that the class is doing badly, it's moreso an implication that we were designed poorly.

I've just been arguing against your mentality that druids really are as bad as you think they are, because I just don't buy it. I also will not join in on you going around telling all these other druids who are actually quite bad at this game that all their fears are warranted. You are just setting them up for failure in the future by reinforcing their attitude.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
11615
01/30/2013 12:05 PMPosted by Fangthorn
other people who can not stop themselves from insisting there was never really a problem to begin with,


There is a problem with us, yes. But it's not as drastic as people make it seem. That's the people you are arguing with. Those guys are saying it's not THAT bad, and that resto could use some tweaks.

Could we use some help? Hell yes.

Are we a !@#$ spec that shouldn't be brought into any 25 man heroic fight because our class is broken and there's no hope of killing a heroic boss when you have a resto druid in there?

That's why you're getting these people arguing that it's not as bad as some people make it.

Re-read the OP. He said resto is a crap spec. People said it's not. 10 page thread.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]