World of Warcraft®

01/30/2013 12:09 PMPosted by Sensations

I am only here arguing with your little buddy Sensations and other people who can not stop themselves from insisting there was never really a problem to begin with,

Where did we insist there was never a problem? I understand reading comprehension varies from person to person but I already explained the variable I used in the term fine but you seem to keep changing it to support your argument. Just stop.

Oh come on, you have been dismissive of any druid concern for months now. You need to stop. You have been reduced to arguing the meaning of single words because your posting is so vague and inarticulate.

Where did we insist there was never a problem? I understand reading comprehension varies from person to person but I already explained the variable I used in the term fine but you seem to keep changing it to support your argument. Just stop.

Oh come on, you have been dismissive of any druid concern for months now. You need to stop. You have been reduced to arguing the meaning of single words because your posting is so vague and inarticulate.

No you stop, we've been over this.

I am only here arguing with your little buddy Sensations and other people who can not stop themselves from insisting there was never really a problem to begin with,

There really wasn't a huge problem with us to begin with, though. Like I've said a ridiculous amount of times, our mana issues needed a fix, and it was temporarily fixed with the 2pc. Upon getting that, life as a resto druid has been immensely easier and I find that the gaps I couldn't fill with other spells are now filled with rejuv, since there's nothing else. That isn't necessarily an implication that the class is doing badly, it's moreso an implication that we were designed poorly.

I've just been arguing against your mentality that druids really are as bad as you think they are, because I just don't buy it. I also will not join in on you going around telling all these other druids who are actually quite bad at this game that all their fears are warranted. You are just setting them up for failure in the future by reinforcing their attitude.

And it continues. Your personal experience as a 10-man druid again is the center of your reasoning. When will you realize that your experience is nothing like mine or other druids healing 25-mans? That the disparity in potential throughput is dramatically different between the formats? Unlike you, I have actually healed both formats and it is entirely different.

all these other druids who are actually quite bad at this game

And while I will not speak to the skill every druid here, calling them all bad is a really classy move... Though, I will admit that it has been pretty disheartening to see our representation diminish on these forums. There used to be quite a few other very skilled druids in these topics in tiers past. That is part of the problem, there are just less of us, and I think it is all related.

Druids may be behind in the hps department. I can distinctly remember blanket rejuvenating the raid in anticipation of damage and then nothing happening because lol spirit shell, no damage. That is probably a good chunk of it. I never really felt to far behind on heroic dogs though because there was so much damage my hots ticked, same with Tsuelong.

All that said what happens when blizz releases another heroic rag? Druids will be the only healers on world first kills there. The gap in utility between us and the other healers is pretty extreme atm even if the current tier doesn't require much of what we bring. AOE roots, knockbacks, brez, stampeding roar, symbiosis, burst dps cd's, eventually something will have to give.

01/29/2013 05:16 PMPosted by Halfatree

Maybe my post was too long, but I'd love a reply... Basically I was saying that druid healing isn't as effective because absorbs are a better model for proactive healing than hots are and everything a druid can do, someone else can do better currently. We are stuck between having an inadequate proactive toolkit (comparitively and with current mechanics) and a deficient reactive toolkit. Given that encounters have high damage currently absorbs are more useful in stabilizing a raid and reactive burst healers are better at healing people back up than we are. Buffing our output will help but the mechanics of our class will continue to suffer as long as absorbs are so strong and our burst healing is nonexistent or getting worse (nature's vigil nerf). Mushrooms can fill a key role in that if our hots go to overheal shrooms can act as that reactive burst mechanic that we are lacking but the fact that they are static may limit them to being useless on some encounters... Thoughts?

I wanted to say that I mostly agree with what you said.. but I let the thread progress and it became apparent that most people were more interested in commenting about one another rather than the state of druids.

The changes (both to our class, as well as the nerfs to disc) will probably help us a fair amount on relative hps, but they do little to address the way the class feels compared to other healers.

You reference Max HPS. As I said, we were at 80K and ranking top ten during Garalon progression. Our other healers were all over 100k, with Shamans at 115K and Monks at 130-140K. This pattern, though not as dramatic, was the same across many of the more intense fights, with Priests taking the top spot in 5.1, with all other classes dropping a bit from the absorb factor.

Are you really saying that you think swapping in druids would not have made a difference when even the closes classes are 20% ahead?

And from my previous post:

I think everyone in this thread has acknowledged the Druids are behind. Do I think having 3 Druids would have set your guild back? Probably not, especially if the fight is executed properly.

While Druids may have been behind, they still have the necessary utility, tools and output to perform during progression raids. There is no reason why Method would have brought multiple Resto Druids if they weren't capable of pulling their own weight, especially since they have much more on the line in terms of world first progression.

You need to stop trivializing the fact that Method usually brought 2 Resto Druids to their kills when most fights this tier require an average of 6 healers. Using the argument 'but I'm talking about bringing 3 Resto Druids' to prove that Druids aren't viable is quite fallacious, considering the fact that bringing 3 of any healer is going to be less than optimal too.

Besides, I don't know what strategy your guild used to require most of your healers to be doing over 100k HPS each. Also, at the point in time you were progressing on H-Garalon, Holy Priests/Shamans/Druids were within 10% of each other, certainly no where near the disparity you're claiming.

Also, looking at Vigil's logs I see nothing that shows you prefer to use Druids on progression. Actually, it look like you excluded druids or use them as minimally as possible throughout this tier. Actions speak far louder than words; you can claim everything you want about how strong you think druids are, but when it came to your own healing core, you mostly excluded them.

We have a roster of 8 healers. Out of those 8, only our Resto Druid has reliable experience with his DPS off-spec, so obviously we were going to get him to DPS.

01/30/2013 12:16 PMPosted by Sensations

No you stop, we've been over this.

Or you could all stop the incessant bickering? It's becoming rather tiring to have to shovel through all the senseless "no u" posts.

Mushrooms can fill a key role in that if our hots go to overheal shrooms can act as that reactive burst mechanic that we are lacking but the fact that they are static may limit them to being useless on some encounters... Thoughts?

I also think, like some of the other posters in the thread mentioned, that something should be done about the 6 yd limit. It's really quite paltry, especially if it's meant to fill that burst gap in our toolkit.

Unfortunately, I can't get on the PTR due to technical reasons, but I'd love to hear from those trying them out on PTR how it's panning out as far as execution and healing.

01/30/2013 02:18 PMPosted by Sherbear

I also think, like some of the other posters in the thread mentioned, that something should be done about the 6 yd limit. It's really quite paltry, especially if it's meant to fill that burst gap in our toolkit.

It would be nice to see the radius of Wild Mushrooms increase as they grew bigger from gaining over healing. I was pretty excited when I read that they would grow bigger, but I have no idea if there'll be a corresponding radius increase.

01/30/2013 02:20 PMPosted by Ceddya

It would be nice to see the radius of Wild Mushrooms increase as they grew bigger from gaining over healing. I was pretty excited when I read that they would grow bigger, but I have no idea if there'll be a corresponding radius increase.

Right? It would be nice rather than seeing...

HUGE MUSHROOM!!!! FOOM!!

tiny circle *poof*

Assuming that skill and gear are equal, guilds currently ARE gimping their raids if they take the druid. Especially over a disc priest, paladin, or monk.

Oh, really? Thank god you aren't a raid leader.

But over time the trend is to create the best raid group possible by taking the better classes. That's probably why resto druid representation in raids has declined so much this tier.

Only in top tier guilds where the very last .00001% of HPS/DPS matters. We've been over this... Get on track.

But to go by your logic, I guess all guilds should just stack mages and disc priests since anything less than the best is gimping yourselves.

01/30/2013 01:42 PMPosted by Ceddya

I think everyone in this thread has acknowledged the Druids are behind. Do I think having 3 Druids would have set your guild back? Probably not, especially if the fight is executed properly.

Well, this is never a particularly good argument. All healers (when brought in sufficient numbers) have the ability to cover the healing required with perfect execution, plus some.

It's that "plus some" that's really the core of healer balance, because that's how healers impact progression: a healer who can cover more imperfections can allow the raid to progress faster.

01/30/2013 03:25 PMPosted by Alphadruid

Oh, really? Thank god you aren't a raid leader.


Only in top tier guilds where the very last .00001% of HPS/DPS matters. We've been over this... Get on track.

But to go by your logic, I guess all guilds should just stack mages and disc priests since anything less than the best is gimping yourselves.

Class stacking like that can result in problems with buffs and loot. Taking the better class when gear and player ability are equal is not class stacking.

You seem to think that there's an HPS bar for each encounter and so long as a healer can satisfy their pro rata share of that requirement all healing beyond that is waste. That's silly reasoning that assumes the raid group will have perfect encounter execution and no use for more DPS.

Okay Alphadruid. You're right. Druids are terrible and should be replaced the moment you see one in the raid, otherwise you're just gimping yourself. Bbl.

01/30/2013 01:42 PMPosted by Ceddya

You need to stop trivializing the fact that Method usually brought 2 Resto Druids to their kills when most fights this tier require an average of 6 healers. Using the argument 'but I'm talking about bringing 3 Resto Druids' to prove that Druids aren't viable is quite fallacious, considering the fact that bringing 3 of any healer is going to be less than optimal too.

Ill repeat, once again, we have two core druids on our healing roster. I have first hand experience to how that works out. Anyway, Method, and even our guild, was the exception to the majority. While they showed it could be done, with two very exceptional players, most guilds did not follow suit.

What was more common was what Blood Legion, Vodka, and your very own guild, Vigil, did. Use no druids, or only one, sparingly. In the case of BL and Vodka, they did not even have druids on their roster. Overall there is no denying that they were used much less this tier than in the previous. That is simple to verify, the total number of parses is almost below Monks, a brand new class. We have fallen to half the numbers of other long time classes.

I really do not know why you are debating this. Druids are currently not sought after at all, you would be hard pressed to find any real recruitment of Resto Druids for 25-man guilds. Take a look at your own guilds recruitment, even though you barely use druids currently, having one you use mainly as DPS, Vigil is recruiting EVERY SINGLE CLASS EXCEPT DRUIDS.

Ill repeat that, your own guild has absolutely no interest in recruiting Druids, even though it is currently your least utilized healing spec...

You can pontificate all you want about how you think druids are fine, but actions speak louder than words. You neither use, nor really want Druids on your roster..

Most people know they have room to improve; most people know as a practical matter that a fraction of a percent of a percent here and there only really come into play with guilds at the bleeding edge of progression. (Finally got to use that in context--so much better than using it out!) But when people think their class/spec is underperforming, they worry about their raid spot. Or worse: they worry that it's not quite fair to their raid team to keep their spot, even if they manage to complete encounters. I obviously can't know how all guilds behave, but I think most semi-hardcore guilds are practical enough to prefer solid (and reliable) players whose spec may be a bit behind over...whatever, but it's hard to shake the guilt and frustration that another class (not player) may benefit your raid team more and make progression for them easier, faster, smoother, etc. Clearly, dismissing their concerns doesn't allay them (or even prove them wrong). In any case, I hope the buffs (and the nerfs to disc) bring things more in line for people.

01/30/2013 03:08 PMPosted by Fleurs

Assuming that skill and gear are equal, guilds currently ARE gimping their raids if they take the druid. Especially over a disc priest, paladin, or monk.

Oh, really? Thank god you aren't a raid leader.

But over time the trend is to create the best raid group possible by taking the better classes. That's probably why resto druid representation in raids has declined so much this tier.

Only in top tier guilds where the very last .00001% of HPS/DPS matters. We've been over this... Get on track.

But to go by your logic, I guess all guilds should just stack mages and disc priests since anything less than the best is gimping yourselves.

So who is the one exaggerating now?

How is a 10-30% difference in HPS all of a sudden equal to 0.00001%? Like really, are you even trying to be credible?

Your arguments just keep getting more and more desperate.

01/30/2013 02:20 PMPosted by Ceddya

I also think, like some of the other posters in the thread mentioned, that something should be done about the 6 yd limit. It's really quite paltry, especially if it's meant to fill that burst gap in our toolkit.

It would be nice to see the radius of Wild Mushrooms increase as they grew bigger from gaining over healing. I was pretty excited when I read that they would grow bigger, but I have no idea if there'll be a corresponding radius increase.

Something on-topic, OMG I'll jump on it!

I actually think this would be too OP, well if they grew too big in radius.

I actually proposed the reverse, I think they should start large and shrink over time, but the final radius should be larger than it is currently, say 8 yards.

But yeh, in the PTR I have responded a couple times that the changes did nothing to make them less clunky. Which is what most people complained about...

01/29/2013 10:40 PMPosted by Tiberria

Sensations and Fleurs are obviously two different people. A quick look of their logs where both are in for the same fights at the same time would make that obvious.

Nope. Sensations said earlier that Fleurs was his alt. I'm guessing 2 accounts.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7709862208?page=5

I'm sorry, where is yours saying 30% lower. Last I checked it's only when you compare them to Disc which is an outlier who you don't compare against. Ps. fleurs is my alt