Is 10% Enough To Fix Resto Druids In 5.2?

100 Tauren Shaman
HC
18005
01/30/2013 03:53 PMPosted by Fangthorn

Oh, really? Thank god you aren't a raid leader.


Only in top tier guilds where the very last .00001% of HPS/DPS matters. We've been over this... Get on track.

But to go by your logic, I guess all guilds should just stack mages and disc priests since anything less than the best is gimping yourselves.


So who is the one exaggerating now?

How is a 10-30% difference in HPS all of a sudden equal to 0.00001%? Like really, are you even trying to be credible?

Your arguments just keep getting more and more desperate.


Now it's 10-30? What ever happened to you just saying 30.
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100 Worgen Druid
13380
I have always given a range, or said UP TO 30 percent.

English is hard.
Edited by Fangthorn on 1/30/2013 4:12 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17065
01/30/2013 04:05 PMPosted by Merìdian
Sensations and Fleurs are obviously two different people. A quick look of their logs where both are in for the same fights at the same time would make that obvious.


Nope. Sensations said in the other thread that Fleurs was his alt.


They are *not* the same person. Look at the logs like Tiberria suggested, or maybe even one of the videos of their kills. They are *both* in the raid at the same time. Jeez.
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100 Worgen Druid
13380
01/30/2013 04:05 PMPosted by Merìdian
Sensations and Fleurs are obviously two different people. A quick look of their logs where both are in for the same fights at the same time would make that obvious.


Nope. Sensations said earlier that Fleurs was his alt. I'm guessing 2 accounts.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7709862208?page=5

I'm sorry, where is yours saying 30% lower. Last I checked it's only when you compare them to Disc which is an outlier who you don't compare against. Ps. fleurs is my alt


He was joking.
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100 Worgen Druid
13380
But at this point they might as well be the same person. So who cares.
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
18005
I have always given a range, or said UP TO 30 percent.

English is hard.


Oh sorry, 20-30% was your usual now you're using 10-30. Just trying to keep up since you're always changing.
Edited by Sensations on 1/30/2013 4:16 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
6630
Anyways, this thread is starting to go sideways. Can we please keep it constructive.

Remember that I'm talking mostly about 25mans. I have never enjoyed 10man raiding. I think that most people agree that Druids do not have a good toolbox in 25s, especially with the burst damage this expansion, the tiny radius of mushrooms (unchanged in 5.2) and the shift away from triage.

The buffs in 5.2 will help, especially making our 2T14 baseline, but I still think that Mushrooms need to get the Lightwell treatment or at least have their range increased. Tranq needs a buff (I've seen a raid wipe through it, it's the new Hymn!) and we need some more reliable burst healing.
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90 Night Elf Druid
6630
01/30/2013 04:13 PMPosted by Fangthorn
He was joking.


Why would he claim that? To troll? How does that help the discussion at *all*?

I'm pretty sure it's either his alt account or the account of a SO that he is using to double post.
Edited by Merìdian on 1/30/2013 4:18 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/30/2013 04:17 PMPosted by Merìdian
He was joking.


Why would he claim that? To troll? How does that help the discussion at *all*?

I'm pretty sure it's either his alt account or the account of a SO that he is using to double post.


You make me a very sad Priest. A very, very sad Priest.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12825
Most people know they have room to improve; most people know as a practical matter that a percent here and there only really come into play with guilds at the bleeding edge of progression.

That's actually not true. A percent or two here or there makes a difference for any guild trying to progress, bleeding edge or not.

The difference is that there's a lot more variation in player skill in non-bleeding-edge raids, and lower-skilled players have a lot more variation in personal performance, so class balance differences tend to get lost in the noise. But for a skilled, consistent healer, a few percent can absolutely have an impact no matter what their raid's progression. That's true even if they're not perfect, as long as they're skilled and consistent enough for the change to be reflected in their performance.

And there are a whole lot of skilled, consistent healers in tier 2 HM raiding guilds and an even larger number sprinkled among lower-progression and even some normal-mode raid groups. The interesting thing about healing is that the challenge doesn't necessarily increase with the skill of your group, so talented healers who are motivated by challenge more than by achievement may not always be motivated to move up to higher-progression groups at the expense of social ties.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
01/30/2013 04:17 PMPosted by Merìdian
He was joking.


Why would he claim that? To troll? How does that help the discussion at *all*?

I'm pretty sure it's either his alt account or the account of a SO that he is using to double post.


Let me make this easy for you. Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wome8bFxIdU
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90 Troll Druid
8670
Fangthorn and Sensations (and a few other people), you guys need a time out. Seriously if all you're gonna do is fight each other you're both essentially trolling the thread, take it somewhere else.

As far as changing shrooms to have a wider radius I don't know that that will happen but it would be nice if the buff stacked passively even without shrooms down. They might need a slight nerf in rate of over healing applied to them since they would be far too useful then but at least then they would be useful every minute as opposed to being ready every 30 seconds but no one being near them. If they were able to be moved as well and remain fully buffed it would be amazing. Being able to use them once every minute would put them on par with spirit shell. Then again maybe they don't want one minute cooldowns to become the norm, so a radius increase without being able to relocate them could be the best solution, maybe something the size of healing rain (how would they indicate the explosion radius once they are down tho? Maybe a pulsing graphic?) I hope they aren't done with them completely but even if they are it's nice to have SOMETHING that we can use even if they are clunky.

As far as 10% healing possibly being op in 10 mans, I doubt it... We are still behind most classes in this format even and if shrooms remain the same (no radius increase or being able to move them) the mechanic problems of having our hots going to overhealing and a lack of burst (or our burst completely ooming us) will remain the same. That's not to say we will be bad, but I don't think it will be op. One thing I would like to see reverted is the Nature's Vigil change as it reduces the burst we have already, but that's a discussion for another thread.
Edited by Halfatree on 1/30/2013 4:38 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13150
01/30/2013 04:25 PMPosted by Kaels
Most people know they have room to improve; most people know as a practical matter that a percent here and there only really come into play with guilds at the bleeding edge of progression.

That's actually not true. A percent or two here or there makes a difference for any guild trying to progress, bleeding edge or not.

The difference is that there's a lot more variation in player skill in non-bleeding-edge raids, and lower-skilled players have a lot more variation in personal performance, so class balance differences tend to get lost in the noise. But for a skilled, consistent healer, a few percent can absolutely have an impact no matter what their raid's progression. That's true even if they're not perfect, as long as they're skilled and consistent enough for the change to be reflected in their performance.

And there are a whole lot of skilled, consistent healers in tier 2 HM raiding guilds and an even larger number sprinkled among lower-progression and even some normal-mode raid groups. The interesting thing about healing is that the challenge doesn't necessarily increase with the skill of your group, so talented healers who are motivated by challenge more than by achievement may not always be motivated to move up to higher-progression groups at the expense of social ties.


Should I really have said fractions of a percent of a percent when I'm guessing you know exactly what I was trying to say?
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650


Oh, really? Thank god you aren't a raid leader.

Only in top tier guilds where the very last .00001% of HPS/DPS matters. We've been over this... Get on track.

But to go by your logic, I guess all guilds should just stack mages and disc priests since anything less than the best is gimping yourselves.


So who is the one exaggerating now?

How is a 10-30% difference in HPS all of a sudden equal to 0.00001%? Like really, are you even trying to be credible?

Your arguments just keep getting more and more desperate.

Okay Fangthorn.

Sensations and Fleurs are obviously two different people. A quick look of their logs where both are in for the same fights at the same time would make that obvious.


Nope. Sensations said earlier that Fleurs was his alt. I'm guessing 2 accounts.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7709862208?page=5

I'm sorry, where is yours saying 30% lower. Last I checked it's only when you compare them to Disc which is an outlier who you don't compare against. Ps. fleurs is my alt

Yeah, I'm his alt alright. He raids on 2 toons at the same time. No biggie.
Edited by Fleurs on 1/30/2013 4:40 PM PST
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100 Worgen Druid
13380
Fangthorn and Sensations (and a few other people), you guys need a time out. Seriously if all you're gonna do is fight each other you're both essentially trolling the thread, take it somewhere else.

As far as changing shrooms to have a wider radius I don't know that that will happen but it would be nice if the buff stacked passively even without shrooms down. They might need a slight nerf in rate of over healing applied to them since they would be far too useful then but at least then they would be useful every minute as opposed to being ready every 30 seconds but no one being near them. If they were able to be moved as well and remain fully buffed it would be amazing. Being able to use them once every minute would put them on par with spirit shell. Then again maybe they don't want one minute cooldowns to become the norm, so a radius increase without being able to relocate them could be the best solution, maybe something the size of healing rain (how would they indicate the explosion radius once they are down tho? Maybe a pulsing graphic?) I hope they aren't done with them completely but even if they are it's nice to have SOMETHING that we can use even if they are clunky.

As far as 10% healing possibly being op in 10 mans, I doubt it... We are still behind most classes in this format even and if shrooms remain the same (no radius increase or being able to move them) the mechanic problems of having our hots going to overhealing and a lack of burst (or our burst completely ooming us) will remain the same. That's not to say we will be bad, but I don't think it will be op. One thing I would like to see reverted is the Nature's Vigil change as it reduces the burst we have already, but that's a discussion for another thread.


I prefer being told to stand in the corner.

On-topic, being able to move them would be great. It would still take those GCDs so it does not feel that unbalanced. But that would mean the buff would need to transfer with them, as they are de-spawned and re-spawned, I wonder if Blizzard can do that. I don't think a wider radius will happen. But they really need to do something to make them less clunky. 90% of the complaints are about them being clunky, and nothing they have done addresses that aspect, if anything they may be a bit more confusing for most players.

But, during my testing it really did not take that long to fully charge them. Just healing myself it felt pretty quick. I'll geta better idea in a raid, when I can, and report them here. I am thinking with just light coverage it will be 10-20 seconds. I am also working on a weak-auras to track the over-healing on each shroom, that will help suing them until a specific addon comes out, and Ill post it here where I get it working.

I am worried about 10-man balance though. We are stronger there, and we have always been a bit more optimized for it. Our swiftmend scales better, mushrooms scale better, our tank healing abilities (while simultaneously raid healing) have always been really nice in 10-mans. Pretty much everything we have is better fit for 10-mans. I was hoping they would have buffed us in ways that apply to larger raid formats, such as WG, but that is not that easy to do.
Edited by Fangthorn on 1/30/2013 5:05 PM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
15000
Hey, remember when everyone said disc priests needed buffs? How did that work out?

Healer balance looked pretty good on raid bots (except monks) before the 5.1 patch.
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100 Night Elf Druid
6355
01/30/2013 04:46 PMPosted by Fangthorn
We are stronger there, and we have always been a bit more optimized for it. Our swiftmend scales better, mushrooms scale better, our tank healing abilities (while simultaneously raid healing) have always been really nice in 10-mans. Pretty much everything we have is better fit for 10-mans.


Yeah, but isn't that true for all healers? People look at what they can do in a 10-man and what they can do in a 25-man and forget that *there are three times as many heal slots for a reason*. You aren't supposed to be able to save the whole raid by yourself. You're a smaller piece of a larger group, and inevitably your personal healing done is a smaller share of the total healing the raid needs.

Everyone else's heals have target caps and DRs too. Nobody gets to do millions of total healing with one cast just because the whole raid is stacked, not even with multi-minute cooldowns. Scaling does not work that way, not just for druids, but in general.
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