Is 10% Enough To Fix Resto Druids In 5.2?

100 Worgen Druid
12800
In 25 Heroics it is three specs that are 20-30%. Do you consider 3 of 6 an outlier?
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90 Night Elf Druid
6630
01/24/2013 05:45 PMPosted by Sensations
Using an outlier to determine something is pure bias....


Sensations...not knocking you mate, but every single post I've seen has been you in another classes 'problems' thread arguing against them getting any love at all.

I've seen you claim that resto druids, as they are, are fine. Despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Why does the idea of another class getting a buff make you itchy?
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Isn't one of the main issues with Resto Druids the fact that they're getting sniped so much? I've seen parses of Restos healing without Disc Priests and they seem pretty competitive with the other healers. With the 10% buff and the fact that Disc's ability to blanket the raid in shields being reduced significantly, Resto Druids really should be in a good place come 5.2 IMO.
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
17975
Using an outlier to determine something is pure bias....


Sensations...not knocking you mate, but every single post I've seen has been you in another classes 'problems' thread arguing against them getting any love at all.

I've seen you claim that resto druids, as they are, are fine. Despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Why does the idea of another class getting a buff make you itchy?


Please don't take my words out of context. I never once said Druids didn't need buffs, I never once said priest didn't need buffs back in 5.0. I never advocate against other classes getting buffs.

Just because someone doesn't agree with a current argument being used doesn't mean I think they shouldn't need help.
Edited by Sensations on 1/24/2013 6:17 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
6630
01/24/2013 06:16 PMPosted by Sensations


Sensations...not knocking you mate, but every single post I've seen has been you in another classes 'problems' thread arguing against them getting any love at all.

I've seen you claim that resto druids, as they are, are fine. Despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Why does the idea of another class getting a buff make you itchy?


Please don't take my words out of context. I never once said Druids didn't need buffs, I never once said priest didn't need buffs back in 5.0. I never advocate against other classes getting buffs.

Just because someone doesn't agree with a current argument being used doesn't mean I think they shouldn't need help.


Ah :)

It's quotes like this that confused me:
anyone who says they're (Druids) are "bad" are being over dramatic.


So - do you think that 10% is enough of a buff? Considering that Mushrooms are still clunky as hell and that on 25s druids are still going to have the crappiest aoe by a mile?
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90 Gnome Priest
11895
http://i.imgur.com/qhtaa6d.png

http://i.imgur.com/joBmkju.png

Why are you taking screenshots? You can just link us the graph.

Hell, screenshots of graphs are the worst thing you could do since we don't know the parameters.
Edited by Skootalloo on 1/24/2013 6:27 PM PST
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100 Worgen Druid
12800
Its all very easy to get and commonly known data. I used "all Parses" and 25N and 25H as I already described in the previous posts. Have at it yourself:

www.raidbots.com
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17065
01/24/2013 06:16 PMPosted by Sensations
I never once said priest didn't need buffs back in 5.0.


Actually, you pretty much said that just eight days ago:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7592202440?page=1#5

Disc was bad because it was the beginning of an expansion, disc scaled perfectly fine and would've been more than fine(World first guilds were bringing it before the overbuffs). People couldn't wait and cried wolf, now the bed is made. Priest sat there quietly once it received it's overbuffs and didn't fight for mechanical changes, all they wanted was to look good on meters.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10520
01/24/2013 07:48 PMPosted by Taymage
Disc was bad because it was the beginning of an expansion, disc scaled perfectly fine and would've been more than fine(World first guilds were bringing it before the overbuffs). People couldn't wait and cried wolf, now the bed is made. Priest sat there quietly once it received it's overbuffs and didn't fight for mechanical changes, all they wanted was to look good on meters.


This all boils down to opinion since we never got to see how disc scaled after the kneejerk cry out from the priest community. Only blizzard knows what their internal numbers were for disc in raid gear, so the point is kind of moot.
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
17975
01/24/2013 07:48 PMPosted by Taymage
I never once said priest didn't need buffs back in 5.0.


Actually, you pretty much said that just eight days ago:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7592202440?page=1#5

Disc was bad because it was the beginning of an expansion, disc scaled perfectly fine and would've been more than fine(World first guilds were bringing it before the overbuffs). People couldn't wait and cried wolf, now the bed is made. Priest sat there quietly once it received it's overbuffs and didn't fight for mechanical changes, all they wanted was to look good on meters.


I said disc scaled perfectly fine and Disc would've been fine(Opinion) once they got the gear. I didn't say disc was fine at the current point. Nb though tay.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17065
01/24/2013 08:36 PMPosted by Sensations
I said disc scaled perfectly fine and Disc would've been fine(Opinion) once they got the gear. I didn't say disc was fine at the current point. Nb though tay.


Ok buddy, whatever you feel like telling yourself.

But let me quote you again:

Disc was bad because it was the beginning of an expansion, disc scaled perfectly fine and would've been more than fine


Yeah, *so* much different than saying disc needed no buffs.
Edited by Taymage on 1/25/2013 2:27 AM PST
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
Pretty sure the heart of what he was saying was for people to stop being so overdramatic and to be constructive rather than how they were, because "disc scaled perfectly fine once they got gear".
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
The 20-30% gap that people are referring to is probably the difference between Disc and Druids. Aside from Disc, the other 5 specs are within a 10% range of each other. The real issue is Disc needing to be hit with a massive nerf, not necessarily that any of the other specs are grossly underpowered (which is happening). I suspect the Druid buffs will put them in middle of the pack overall instead of at the bottom.
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1 Blood Elf Priest
0
I believe 10% will be too much of a buff and that the addition of Naturalist is unnecessary.

Look at the graph, yes, Druids are on average 70% of a Disc at this point, but this reflects the sheer power of absorbs more than the weakness of Druids.

Mechanical changes like Shroom buff should be taking place, but I think the Naturalist buff is premature, and should be postponed until the Disc nerfs have had a chance to settle in.

From the top of my head I do not recall any nerfs to Druids and Shamans, yet despite improving gear their HPS has dropped - is it because the best and brightest have re-rolled FOTM? Or it is because more parses that include those classes contain a higher % of Disc Priests where the absorbs are suppressing their throughput?

Look at Holy Priests, they are now second, but I can imagine that say 20%* of parses that contain Holy Priests do not contain a Disc meaning that 80%* of Holy Priest parses are not being suppressed. Druids might be the reverse (80% of Druids working alongside a Disc*) - therefore, the nerfs to Disc will see everyone else's throughput rise, but Shaman and Druids should rise significantly higher. Holy Priests might rise higher too, but that would probably be more due to an influx of Disc's respeccing for the higher HPS spec, despite the strength of bubbles.

* numbers pulled out my !@#$

Paladins have continued to grow but again this is because they have strong bubbles. I would advocate a change to Paladins that reduced the strength of the Mastery stat so it was the weakest of the secondary stats - not useless, but a close third behind Haste/Crit. Even if it mean a small buff to compensate for the lost of throughput. I wouldn't want to see their throughput change, just its nature.

I do not know how to account for Monks, but considering they took the brunt of the nerf bat I imagine it would take a while to get back into their stride. Plus (I may be making this up, but sure I read it somewhere) I think that most monks rerolled from either Rogues or Priests, which would again mean that a % of Monk parses are not competing against the HPS suppression of Disc bubbles. Strike that last bit, I may be making that up!

Having said that about the Naturalist change, Druids have been on the bottom spot for most of this expansion (except when Disc/Holy was) which is definitely not fun, so perhaps the 10% Naturalist buff should go through to shake things up again. However, the overbuff/overnerf game is not fun and I do see these Druid buffs as part of that game - though not to as gross a degree as the 5.1 Disc changes.

What raidbots really needs is a way to remove all parses containing X spec so that we can see performance without the HPS suppression of Discs, especially, and Paladins, to a lesser degree. This might not work for 25H but would help when looking at 10H performances.
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100 Tauren Druid
10285
I believe 10% will be too much of a buff and that the addition of Naturalist is unnecessary.

Look at the graph, yes, Druids are on average 70% of a Disc at this point, but this reflects the sheer power of absorbs more than the weakness of Druids.

Mechanical changes like Shroom buff should be taking place, but I think the Naturalist buff is premature, and should be postponed until the Disc nerfs have had a chance to settle in.

From the top of my head I do not recall any nerfs to Druids and Shamans, yet despite improving gear their HPS has dropped - is it because the best and brightest have re-rolled FOTM? Or it is because more parses that include those classes contain a higher % of Disc Priests where the absorbs are suppressing their throughput?

Look at Holy Priests, they are now second, but I can imagine that say 20%* of parses that contain Holy Priests do not contain a Disc meaning that 80%* of Holy Priest parses are not being suppressed. Druids might be the reverse (80% of Druids working alongside a Disc*) - therefore, the nerfs to Disc will see everyone else's throughput rise, but Shaman and Druids should rise significantly higher. Holy Priests might rise higher too, but that would probably be more due to an influx of Disc's respeccing for the higher HPS spec, despite the strength of bubbles.

* numbers pulled out my !@#$

Paladins have continued to grow but again this is because they have strong bubbles. I would advocate a change to Paladins that reduced the strength of the Mastery stat so it was the weakest of the secondary stats - not useless, but a close third behind Haste/Crit. Even if it mean a small buff to compensate for the lost of throughput. I wouldn't want to see their throughput change, just its nature.

I do not know how to account for Monks, but considering they took the brunt of the nerf bat I imagine it would take a while to get back into their stride. Plus (I may be making this up, but sure I read it somewhere) I think that most monks rerolled from either Rogues or Priests, which would again mean that a % of Monk parses are not competing against the HPS suppression of Disc bubbles. Strike that last bit, I may be making that up!

Having said that about the Naturalist change, Druids have been on the bottom spot for most of this expansion (except when Disc/Holy was) which is definitely not fun, so perhaps the 10% Naturalist buff should go through to shake things up again. However, the overbuff/overnerf game is not fun and I do see these Druid buffs as part of that game - though not to as gross a degree as the 5.1 Disc changes.

What raidbots really needs is a way to remove all parses containing X spec so that we can see performance without the HPS suppression of Discs, especially, and Paladins, to a lesser degree. This might not work for 25H but would help when looking at 10H performances.


I will have to agree w/ sensationalist sensations and say healer balance is close except for disc, everything you wrote was mass conjecture. Mechanical changes my !@#$ they're just throwing bandaids at a %^-*ty spell because they're dead set on keeping it.

Naturalist is a pve/pvp buff one cannot just look at changes from one point of view anymore it may need toning down it may not. I have yet too play holy so, i can't say much about it, but i think changing the amount of free spells they get rather than going for their shields is a better place too start.
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90 Night Elf Druid
6630
The 20-30% gap that people are referring to is probably the difference between Disc and Druids. Aside from Disc, the other 5 specs are within a 10% range of each other. The real issue is Disc needing to be hit with a massive nerf, not necessarily that any of the other specs are grossly underpowered (which is happening). I suspect the Druid buffs will put them in middle of the pack overall instead of at the bottom.


Well, I still think Holy Pallies may need a look. Wish I could get on the PTR :|
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
17975
I said disc scaled perfectly fine and Disc would've been fine(Opinion) once they got the gear. I didn't say disc was fine at the current point. Nb though tay.


Ok buddy, whatever you feel like telling yourself.

But let me quote you again:

Disc was bad because it was the beginning of an expansion, disc scaled perfectly fine and would've been more than fine


Yeah, *so* much different than saying disc needed no buffs.


/golfclap
Edited by Sensations on 1/25/2013 8:17 AM PST
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90 Troll Druid
11615
I didn't think we were broken.

This thread was entertaining though.
Edited by Kuruption on 1/25/2013 9:11 AM PST
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100 Undead Priest
16795
01/23/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Merise
Well, coupled with the amazing nerfs to disc priests, it should at least level the playing field a bit.


You mean since Disc Priests won't be in raids any more and Holy Paladin's will be brought for absorbs?
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