Is 10% Enough To Fix Resto Druids In 5.2?

90 Night Elf Druid
6630
01/27/2013 07:30 PMPosted by Sensations
Do you look at healing how you look at dps? Instead of making foolish claims and twisting words, prove what I said wrong?


Prove what wrong? That druids are fine? People have been doing that in multiple threads.

All Sensations is saying is that there do need to be changes to resto druids, but not because we're "weak", "bad", "not doing well", or w/e you can think up. It's just to finetune something that's a little out of whack. Not because we're necessarily in a bad place. And whether you choose to believe it or not, there are plenty of druids out there that have been saying the opposite.


Is this Sensations alt, or just a guildie?
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90 Night Elf Druid
6630
01/27/2013 07:30 PMPosted by Sensations
You also talk of me not knowing how to interpret statistics, yet you don't even know what sample bias is.. Also yes, a couple of people think of I have an obsession with using raidbots as the end-all statistics, don't know how I'll continue to function.


But Sensations, don't you see that you do the same thing? You choose to dismiss any stats that support the viewpoint you don't agree with.

01/27/2013 06:39 PMPosted by Sensations
No I don't, and please before you make such post saying I jump into every thread(I guess it's moved up from druids thinking they're special) please show me every single thread I jumped in and simply said "no you're fine" or are words being blown of context again? Also I've stated what I mean by fine numerous times, since you like to stalk how I post in threads you should know what it means by now. As for the rest of your post, not worth arguing with.


It's an impression I got. I recently returned to the healing forum and the first 3 or 4 threads I read literally had you saying "no - you are fine" in some form or another. It reminds me of Tiamat's crusades against monks on the PTR.

Maybe I'm mistaken and you really aren't just trying to keep classes that aren't your own down. But that's how it seems - and by the looks of this thread, I'm not alone in this. If it's really causing that much confusion, maybe you need to rethink you use the word 'fine'.

All Sensations is saying is that there do need to be changes to resto druids, but not because we're "weak", "bad", "not doing well", or w/e you can think up. It's just to finetune something that's a little out of whack. Not because we're necessarily in a bad place. And whether you choose to believe it or not, there are plenty of druids out there that have been saying the opposite.


Then why are druids being abandoned en-masse by progression guilds?

Why are druid healing numbers so low compared to Cata?

Fine does *not* mean "there need to be significant changes to your class". Fine means "you are fine and don't need any major fixes".
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
Then why are druids being abandoned en-masse by progression guilds?

Why are druid healing numbers so low compared to Cata?

Fine does *not* mean "there need to be significant changes to your class". Fine means "you are fine and don't need any major fixes".

I don't see how the changes are major... WM has been an issue since day 1, and druids were doing raids w/out it just fine, if you ask me. I'm not going to talk about World 1sts or even the highest caliber of guilds out there, since it's not what the devs decide to balance things on. Those guilds that you are referencing decide on who to bring based on the very last decimal of however much that class can DPS/HPS (+buffs/utility they bring), so that it may save them even seconds of time on their kills in order to do well in the progression race.

The level the devs look at is in the middle of the pack, and resto is 100% viable in that situation. There are some changes that were needed, but it in no way implies we were doing bad beforehand. I don't know if I'd go as far to say as we were "fine", but after talking with Sensations about rdruids for a while now, I believe everyone's taking his term of "fine" too literally and misunderstanding his use of it.
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
17440
But Sensations, don't you see that you do the same thing? You choose to dismiss any stats that support the viewpoint you don't agree with.


No, I chose to dismiss raidbots "overall" statistics, because of how it's used. You won't see me going into a thread of replying to a post of someone analyzing individual boss fights, logs contained in said boss fight, representation of a class in a setting. There is much more to healing than hps.


Then why are druids being abandoned en-masse by progression guilds?

Why are druid healing numbers so low compared to Cata?

Fine does *not* mean "there need to be significant changes to your class". Fine means "you are fine and don't need any major fixes".


Fine is subjective, since I stated what I mean when I say fine I would hope it isn't taken out of context but sadly some still do.


It's an impression I got. I recently returned to the healing forum and the first 3 or 4 threads I read literally had you saying "no - you are fine" in some form or another. It reminds me of Tiamat's crusades against monks on the PTR.

Maybe I'm mistaken and you really aren't just trying to keep classes that aren't your own down. But that's how it seems - and by the looks of this thread, I'm not alone in this. If it's really causing that much confusion, maybe you need to rethink you use the word 'fine'.


The other two Druids don't like me because every time they post raidbots overall and I tell them that's not a viable way to present a problem and they offer nothing else. All they fall back on is raidbots, raidbots, and raidbots and it's only "hps numbers."
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100 Worgen Druid
12220
Just not true, you just never take part in any real discussion. Either you are too lazy, or just not interested in doing anything but trolling.

For example, here is a post I recently made in the largest druid thread:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7273267268?page=9#172

Did you respond to that? No.. because that's not why you post in these threads, is it? All through that thread you are just picking fights with people, avoiding any real discussion. It has become pretty obvious that you have little interest in actually discussing druids, and just like to instigate arguments and push people's buttons.
Edited by Fangthorn on 1/27/2013 11:35 PM PST
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90 Tauren Druid
8435
Just not true, you just never take part in any real discussion. Either you are too lazy, or just not interested in doing anything but trolling.

For example, here is a post I recently made in the largest druid thread:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7273267268?page=9#172

Did you respond to that? No.. because that's not why you post in these threads, is it? All through that thread you are just picking fights with people, avoiding any real discussion. It has become pretty obvious that you have little interest in actually discussing druids, and just like to instigate arguments and push people's buttons.


Just going to mention that that thread is full and cannot be posted in anymore;) has been for quite some time.

IMO, Resto Druids need a lot of work. In 25man. Which I do not do. I do 10man, and I am more than good enough to run that content, thus I am content, although jealous/annoyed with heal sniping/overpoweredness of Holy Pally/Disc Priest.
Edited by Tonydanza on 1/28/2013 12:19 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
6630
01/27/2013 11:34 PMPosted by Alphadruid
Your argument seems to be reducible to "there's more to being a healer than healing." That's true but druids aren't contributing extra DPS (see lol op disc atonement), amazing utility, or anything else that makes us desireable despite low HPS. We need to do healing comparable to other classes.


Bingo. That's basically the thread summarized in one nice little post.
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90 Pandaren Priest
9955
Every time I see a post by Sensations, I become more curious about exactly what data would sway his opinion.

I'm beginning to think that no such data has or ever will exist. He is a mountain, an unmovable opinion, dense too.
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90 Pandaren Priest
9955
Just not true, you just never take part in any real discussion. Either you are too lazy, or just not interested in doing anything but trolling.

For example, here is a post I recently made in the largest druid thread:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7273267268?page=9#172

Did you respond to that? No.. because that's not why you post in these threads, is it? All through that thread you are just picking fights with people, avoiding any real discussion. It has become pretty obvious that you have little interest in actually discussing druids, and just like to instigate arguments and push people's buttons.


He did that back when Disc Priests were behind other classes in throughput by a good 20% (probably more).

We were buffed (way over buffed imo, and buffed in the wrong way), but it would appear Blizzard disagrees with Sensations quite frequently.

I was told that Disc is fine and that the parses were all bull, well it would appear Blizzard disagreed strongly with his opinion because about a month later Disc became grossly OP following the spec's buffs.

If Disc wasn't broken, why would Blizzard implement such a drastic bandaid fix?
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100 Tauren Druid
9720
01/23/2013 04:58 PMPosted by Merìdian
I know healer performance is nearly impossible to accurately measure, but from what I've seen Rdruids are 20-30% below the other classes and are almost non-existant in top guilds.


This is what I don't think I could ever figure out about the "WoW Community" - this desire to measure yourself against people who you don't need to be measured against.

When in a raid, what matters is that the boss dies before the enrage timer. If the healers chosen for that raid succeed in keeping those alive who assist with that goal, the healers did just fine. Whether those healers are Monks, Druids, Priest, Paladins or Shaman, it doesn't matter. If Uberpaladin is the best healer in the entire game and kicks out triple the healing of lowly little Druid me, that means nothing, because Uberpaladin is not in my raid.

Yes, there is an open market for raid spots. But for the vast majority of players, the market is not very open. If a healer is doing their job and not causing a bottleneck on progression, the raid leader has no reason to shop around for a different healer. (The market does open up when you're seeking to join the "elite" ranks for heroic world firsts, but that sort of min-max recruiting doesn't matter for almost all players).

In PuG situations, this problem has all but gone away. I remember in TBC being stuck because of the "This class is better than that class" problem -- I was a warrior tank, and when answering a call for "LF Tank for Heroic SH", I'd often be met with "Sorry, we'd rather have a Paladin". But for current PUG content, no group is going to say "Sorry Druid, but we hear that <insert class> is slightly better than your class."
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90 Troll Druid
11615
OP asks if resto druid is a crap spec (it's not).

Sensations says you can do just fine (you can).

Thread blows up.

Entertaining stuff.
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
17440
OP asks if resto druid is a crap spec (it's not).

Sensations says you can do just fine (you can).

Thread blows up.

Entertaining stuff.


See they operate under a hivemind mentality. You're either with them or against them, even if the Data they're using can't be used in the manner if you point that out you're against them. So all I have to do is post my opinion on the data they're showing, and hilarity ensues. They wonder why I keep posting...

We were buffed (way over buffed imo, and buffed in the wrong way), but it would appear Blizzard disagrees with Sensations quite frequently.


Now you're taking massive nerfs because of those massive buffs.. Seems your memory isn't as good as the others either as I never said disc didn't need some at the time, but the math being used was also wrong(For the record, even Kaels ADMITTED it about his thread which was where it all started) to it so yea keep talking.
Edited by Sensations on 1/28/2013 11:04 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
9955
OP asks if resto druid is a crap spec (it's not).

Sensations says you can do just fine (you can).

Thread blows up.

Entertaining stuff.


See they operate under a hivemind mentality. You're either with them or against them, even if the Data they're using can't be used in the manner if you point that out you're against them. So all I have to do is post my opinion on the data they're showing, and hilarity ensues. They wonder why I keep posting...

We were buffed (way over buffed imo, and buffed in the wrong way), but it would appear Blizzard disagrees with Sensations quite frequently.


Now you're taking massive nerfs because of those massive buffs.. Seems your memory isn't as good as the others either as I never said disc didn't need some at the time, but the math being used was also wrong(For the record, even Kaels ADMITTED it about his thread which was where it all started) to it so yea keep talking.


Who's to say that Blizzard's own math didn't discredit your own standpoint? As you've said countless times, we aren't privy to all the information.

At the time, Blizzard DID AGREE that Disc needed some help.

Obviously they went way too far with the buffs. There is no arguing that, nor is there any argument that the oncoming nerfs aren't (at least partially) warranted.

Still, this ever-stubborn attitude you have that nothing needs changes is tiring, borderline irritating.

Edit: I will say that I believe that Resto Druids need the buff they're getting, and I'm not certain that it will be enough when taking into consideration how well the other specs currently preform in similar gear.

Disc is being nerfed.

Resto is being buffed.

That's all that matters right now. Hopefully Resto will get enough love to put them up a few notches in the throughput department.

And you still haven't once posted what you believe would be an appropriate way to measure a class' ability to preform as a healer. If you're going to constantly dismiss everyone else's math but never supply any of your own, you're no better than any other troll.
Edited by Jilu on 1/28/2013 11:27 AM PST
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
17440
And you still haven't once posted what you believe would be an appropriate way to measure a class' ability to preform as a healer. If you're going to constantly dismiss everyone else's math but never supply any of your own, you're no better than any other troll.


I don't dismiss other peoples math...

I was dismissive about how kaels portrayed his and what it was lacking, and he later agreed.

I am dismissive when people use overall raidobts as the end-all source.

Using math is fine if it's correct. Using raidbots is fine if you don't go to "All parses>Overall 25m heroic." because there is much much more than that. You also seem to think I was against disc getting buffs, which was not true.
Edited by Sensations on 1/28/2013 11:35 AM PST
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100 Night Elf Druid
5895
01/28/2013 11:23 AMPosted by Jilu
Hopefully Resto will get enough love to put them up a few notches in the throughput department.


I don't feel like overall throughput is our problem though, it's burst healing right after a damage spike that makes everyone else shoot up the meters and leave us in the dust. And mushrooms are just too mechanically limited on too many fights to be much of a solution for that.

From one perspective it's true what Kerranggaroo says, that if the boss is dying and the raid is alive, there's no need to look for a healer to blame in the first place, but not everyone is going to be wise enough to know when not to apply a competitive frame of mind.
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90 Troll Druid
11615
01/28/2013 12:13 PMPosted by Calonderiel
I don't feel like overall throughput is our problem though, it's burst healing right after a damage spike


That's my feeling too.

It just depends on what the fights are like.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
He did that back when Disc Priests were behind other classes in throughput by a good 20% (probably more).

We were buffed (way over buffed imo, and buffed in the wrong way), but it would appear Blizzard disagrees with Sensations quite frequently.

I was told that Disc is fine and that the parses were all bull, well it would appear Blizzard disagreed strongly with his opinion because about a month later Disc became grossly OP following the spec's buffs.

If Disc wasn't broken, why would Blizzard implement such a drastic bandaid fix?


This is a fallacious argument because it starts with the assumption that all balance changes are justified, if not entirely successful. Blizzard could have buffed Discipline in response to issues people were having early on with poor gear levels and overbuffed them unnecessarily, which is pretty much exactly what happened. The fact that the fix made Discipline one of the strongest healers in the history of the game is certainly overshooting the mark. Fire mage, for example, also got a large buff for absolutely no good reason. Both of them were nerfed (one a little more promptly than the other) because the buffs were clearly a mistake.
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