Is 10% Enough To Fix Resto Druids In 5.2?

90 Pandaren Shaman
12265
I'd post you the raidbots links showing this is wrong but you'd insist that thousand and thousands of parses are wrong and blah blah blah.


You'd be wrong because the link you edited out was top 100. Blizzard doesn't balance around the top 100 (and in general, when it comes to healers, they're cheesing something to get there)

Shamans would still be "capable of healing encounters" at those levels. So you would be fine by the definition you are applying to druids.


Nerfing shaman 10-15% wouldn't put them at the level of a druid. It would put them 10-15% behind druids. Think about that for a second.

01/29/2013 02:31 PMPosted by Alphadruid
That effort is to complete a contest about numbers.


Lol...

01/29/2013 02:33 PMPosted by Sherbear
It was a general statement. Sorry, it wasn't very clear. I reconstructed my statement.


I knew what you meant, should have been more clear myself.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12265
01/29/2013 03:02 PMPosted by Alphadruid
I was going to link spec scores for him but then I remembed that the person I was talking to won't accept raidbots or WOL parses.


As I said, because blizzard doesn't balance around top 100. Way to edit out your claim that spec score wasn't affected by top 100. You're just full of false information aren't you?

01/29/2013 03:02 PMPosted by Alphadruid
Even assuming that, you could probably still complete encounters after the nerfs. So shamans would still be "fine" by that definition.


"Could probably." Interesting.

For one, druids aren't 10-15% behind other healers right now. Druids and shaman are neck and neck, so no, it isn't the same at all.

Secondly, druids CAN complete encounters. No "probably" about it. You're perfectly capable of clearing current content. If you can't, the problem is not the class.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
01/29/2013 03:21 PMPosted by Alphadruid
Abiding by your logic, Alpha, you should !@#$ because I have more progression than you. So, maybe you should stop arguing and take your own advice, ya? Or does it not apply to you now that it's being thrown back in your face?


It would apply to me if I had told you that your class balance argument is really a learn to play problem. But only Pebble is making that argument.

So all of a sudden the argument is moot since someone is saying it to you, is what you're saying. The guy simply said what I was saying, in different words; that druids are fully capable of doing heroics and if you're having trouble doing that then it's not a class issue. It's you. And you followed that up with the progression card. So how is it irrelevant for me to throw it back in your face and say you're wrong because my progression is better?

Personally, progression doesn't mean everything to me. People can be carried, so it's not something I look at as an entire measure of how good/bad that person is. Hence why it's silly to even pull that card out in the first place. Idk why you thought it was even worth mentioning.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12265
01/29/2013 03:21 PMPosted by Alphadruid
It would apply to me if I had told you that your class balance argument is really a learn to play problem. But only Pebble is making that argument.


Don't try to put words in my mouth. I said, and I quote:

Druids are more than capable of healing heroics. If you're struggling at this point it isn't because of your class. Play better.


Which is true.

Note how I also said:

Could druids use some help? Sure, but you're not scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Edited by Pebble on 1/29/2013 3:29 PM PST
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90 Troll Druid
11615
This thread just keeps getting better and better.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13930
Fangthorn said:

Wow, that almost looks like you listed every option and gave a very generic answer to their use.

I am so surprised.


Does that gigantic chip on your shoulder make it difficult to walk around?

My point is, and has solely been, that Raidbots has been regularly abused as a tool and indicator of how well or poorly a spec is doing. It's been very rare that anyone has actually provided a link and backed its validity with a reasonable argument.

Most players don't understand why Top 100 and Summary shouldn't be used. Many don't even understand how to provide context to a given encounter. They simply look at the main page, maybe toggle between Top and All and/or Score and DPS, then link it and make a sweeping complaint about how strong/weak so-and-so is.

When looking at class balance, you can't simply look at numbers. They can hint at trouble, but when regarded alone, they can be a truly terrible measuring stick. That's why so many players, including myself, tend to wince and sigh when someone decides that linking WoL, Raidbots, or similar tools, without accurately or appropriately defending their argument, is the best course of action.
Edited by Elethia on 1/29/2013 3:41 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12265
01/29/2013 03:35 PMPosted by Alphadruid
What I keep trying to make you two realize is that saying "a class can complete encounters" is absolutely meaningless as a statement about class balance in a game where a team of players attempt to complete encounters with their total numbers.


Well that's a gem.

So... your class needs to be overpowered so you can carry other people?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
01/29/2013 03:35 PMPosted by Alphadruid
You're right, I should have just said that shamans definetly could heal all current heroic content with a 15% nerf. You and sensations could just l2p around that right? Because that's how class balance works?


So they'd be 15% below Druids instead of equal to them as they currently are? Makes sense.

Sorry Druids, you're not "at the bottom of the barrel", you're just slightly lower than the rest. Slightly. Very slightly. Someone has to be, why is it unfair for it to be you?
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12265
01/29/2013 03:46 PMPosted by Alphadruid
Because only Pebble made an l2p argument in response to a discussion about class balance.


Actually, I didn't. Again, don't put words in my mouth.

I made a learn to play argument in response to you claiming druids were being replaced for heroic content, content they are more than capable of healing.

Perfectly valid.

01/29/2013 03:46 PMPosted by Qùess
Someone has to be, why is it unfair for it to be you?


Don't be silly. This is WoW. That's our (shaman's) rightful place.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10550
01/29/2013 03:46 PMPosted by Qùess
Sorry Druids, you're not "at the bottom of the barrel", you're just slightly lower than the rest. Slightly. Very slightly. Someone has to be, why is it unfair for it to be you?


It's a perfectly natural thing to feel disappointed that your class is seemingly at the bottom. Stating that "some one has to be" doesn't negate the fact that it sucks to feel as if you're at the bottom, especially since we all seem to be emotionally invested in our toons. Blizzard knows the numbers and they're bringing about changes based on those numbers.

We shall see how things pan out.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12265
Do you understand what making a contribution to a raid team means? Hint: It doesn't mean that the team can still succeed despite the bad class being in the group.


Do you understand that druids aren't "so bad" that they will hinder a raid group? Do you understand that if your raid group (again, general statement) is somehow hindered by your (a druid's) presence, its a learn to play issue?

01/29/2013 04:11 PMPosted by Alphadruid
Which is an l2p argument. Hence the relevance of how well people know how to play and the relevance of the class HPS gap increasing rather than decreasing when we look at the top 100 parses.


That may be true when it comes to dps, but that isn't how healing works.

Top 100 HPS doesn't automatically equal "most skilled." It simply means their raid group is taking more damage/cheesing encounters to require more healing from each individual healer (4 healing 25s anyone?)
Edited by Pebble on 1/29/2013 4:37 PM PST
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90 Troll Druid
11615
01/29/2013 04:11 PMPosted by Alphadruid
Hint: It doesn't mean that the team can still succeed despite someone playing that really bad class being in the group.


So druids are a really bad class right now?
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90 Night Elf Druid
6630
ALSO, I POSTED THIS POINT EARLIER, AND THEY BOTH IGNORED IT.Fleurs, Sensations,Are you game designers?


Fleurs is Sensations alt, if you haven't realized yet.
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