Is 10% Enough To Fix Resto Druids In 5.2?

90 Troll Druid
11615
01/29/2013 04:47 PMPosted by Merìdian
ALSO, I POSTED THIS POINT EARLIER, AND THEY BOTH IGNORED IT.Fleurs, Sensations,Are you game designers?


Fleurs is Sensations alt, if you haven't realized yet.


You know, there's ways to figure that out. And they aren't, unless he plays two toons at the same time in their raids.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
12465
There is a chrome plugin for that.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
8670
Maybe my post was too long, but I'd love a reply... Basically I was saying that druid healing isn't as effective because absorbs are a better model for proactive healing than hots are and everything a druid can do, someone else can do better currently. We are stuck between having an inadequate proactive toolkit (comparitively and with current mechanics) and a deficient reactive toolkit. Given that encounters have high damage currently absorbs are more useful in stabilizing a raid and reactive burst healers are better at healing people back up than we are. Buffing our output will help but the mechanics of our class will continue to suffer as long as absorbs are so strong and our burst healing is nonexistent or getting worse (nature's vigil nerf). Mushrooms can fill a key role in that if our hots go to overheal shrooms can act as that reactive burst mechanic that we are lacking but the fact that they are static may limit them to being useless on some encounters... Thoughts?
Edited by Halfatree on 1/29/2013 5:20 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
12645
Maybe my post was too long, but I'd love a reply... Basically I was saying that druid healing isn't as effective because absorbs are a better model for proactive healing than hots are and everything a druid can do, someone else can do better currently. We are stuck between having an inadequate proactive toolkit and a deficient reactive toolkit. Given that encounters have high damage currently absorbs are more useful in stabilizing a raid and reactive burst healers are better at healing people back up than we are. Buffing our output will help but the mechanics of our class will continue to suffer as long as absorbs are so strong and our burst healing is nonexistent or getting worse (nature's vigil nerf). Mushrooms can fill a key role in that if our hots go to overheal shrooms can act as that reactive burst mechanic that we are lacking but the fact that they are static may limit them to being useless on some encounters... Thoughts?

This is an accurate assessment, and it's why druids have historically been balanced to tolerate higher overhealing than other healers.

I think the problem right now is that they don't have that overhealing tolerance built into their heals (which is why you're not seeing them performing well on top-100 - it's unusual for druids not to do well on that metric, because it basically measures how well you can do when you underheal fights).

And that's why they're getting a 10% buff and some additional mechanics to help provide overhealing tolerance. I think the only problem is depending on shrooms to get it done. If I were GC, I probably wouldn't consider doing that without also increasing shroom range to a point where you can reasonably expect people to be in it 20-30 seconds after you cast them.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
16155
01/29/2013 05:16 PMPosted by Halfatree
Mushrooms can fill a key role in that if our hots go to overheal shrooms can act as that reactive burst mechanic that we are lacking but the fact that they are static may limit them to being useless on some encounters... Thoughts?

It would be nice if we were able to re-position WM without letting the overhealing acquired reset.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
01/29/2013 04:49 PMPosted by Alphadruid
If a player can use the weak class in a way that makes the minimum contribution to get the boss down,

Believe this is the heart of everything behind the reasons to your thought process. And this is where I believe that you are incorrect.

By saying "minimum" you are implying your raid has to gimp itself to perform to its fullest by bringing a druid, and that's simply not the case. You are beyond reasoning with if you think that this is how bad resto is.
Edited by Fleurs on 1/29/2013 5:40 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Druid
6550
I probably wouldn't consider doing that without also increasing shroom range to a point where you can reasonably expect people to be in it 20-30 seconds after you cast them.


Shrooms really shouldn't keep thier pitiful 6 yards range if they need so much forethought. A 10% buff is going to be amazing for 10-mans. Our numbers will go up in 25-mans as well but a mechanical change would be preferrable since our toolkit simply doesn't feel quite right for it. It's not just me that feels uncomfortable healing 25-mans as a druid is it?
Reply Quote
100 Troll Druid
19005
I'm particularly fixated on our 2p t15 bonus and how well it'll work in 25's. I honestly feel like we have the better set bonuses next tier, again.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
The 10% buff and the Mushrooms fix is likely going to be enough to bring Druids to a place where they are more competitive with the other non-Disc healing specs. If you apply a 10% buff to where they are trending now, they would jump ahead of monks and shaman and slot in just behind paladins and holy priests.

If the Disc nerf is enough to bring Disc down to the middle to bottom of the pack and there are a lot of fights in T15 that favor mobility and spreading out, Druids could easily be near the top with these buffs. They weren't that far behind the non-Disc healing specs to begin with.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
6630
01/29/2013 05:39 PMPosted by Stratis
Shrooms really shouldn't keep thier pitiful 6 yards range if they need so much forethought.


Agreed. I'd love to see them get the Lightwell treatment and become smart-healing overheal batteries.

Believe this is the heart of everything behind the reasons to your thought process. And this is where I believe that you are incorrect.By saying "minimum" you are implying your raid has to gimp itself to perform to its fullest by bringing a druid, and that's simply not the case. You are beyond reasoning with if you think that this is how bad resto is.


Not getting at you Sensations, but is there a reason why you switched from your Shaman to your Druid in this thread?

I think the core issue here is a matter of what constitutes 'fine'. You seem to think that as long as it's theoretically possible for a raid to beat content using a specific healer, that they are okay.

I think that balance needs to be a little closer than that, especially with what seems to be a return to whack-a-mole burst healing in MOP.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
17105


Not getting at you Sensations, but is there a reason why you switched from your Shaman to your Druid in this thread?


Sensations and Fleurs are obviously two different people. A quick look of their logs where both are in for the same fights at the same time would make that obvious.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
8670
Just a note, lets try to stick to the topic, too many of these threads end in personal attacks on each other. If something bothers you just ignore it, present your argument but please refrain from attacking each others motivations, it's counterproductive and has been happening in too many of these threads.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
6910
01/29/2013 10:34 PMPosted by Merìdian
Agreed. I'd love to see them get the Lightwell treatment and become smart-healing overheal batteries.


I like it. Mushrooms that spread healing spores or something. WITH. BETTER. RANGE.

Last time I played on my druid (albeit a while ago, 5.0) I really did try using them sometimes in dungeons. Like final boss in Jade Serpent. And they were just...underwhelming. The current overhealy thingy I feel is very unique and I like the concept, but as previously stated the are of effect is simply too small.

Any solid news on diminishing returns yet? I haven't been keeping up with it like I should but if the raid IS stacked on them when we need it like they should be and the diminishing returns are enough to make them heal for poops still......then nothing gets fixed.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/29/2013 10:34 PMPosted by Merìdian
Not getting at you Sensations, but is there a reason why you switched from your Shaman to your Druid in this thread?


I'm pretty sure that everyone knows that I have my differences with Fleurs and Sensations. So I hope you'll believe me when I tell you that Fleurs and Sensations are two different people. I know this for a fact. They are not the same person, and it's very easy to tell that they're not. If you ignore Sensations on the forums, you will note that Fleurs is not ignored. If they were on the same account, then they would both be ignored if you ignored one of them.

Please stop perpetuating this insulting and completely baseless bit of gossip.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
12645
The 10% buff and the Mushrooms fix is likely going to be enough to bring Druids to a place where they are more competitive with the other non-Disc healing specs. If you apply a 10% buff to where they are trending now, they would jump ahead of monks and shaman and slot in just behind paladins and holy priests.

Well, a 10% buff to raw healing for druids isn't likely to actually translate into a 10% increase in effective healing, because hots that are already overhealing won't benefit from being bigger. I'd say at first guess that roughly 50-70% of the increased healing will actually translate to effective healing for groups that aren't underhealing.

But that still puts them comfortably within the cluster of non-discipline priests, paladins, shamans, and monks (and I really don't think there's much point talking about the relative balance within that cluster - the numbers are way too close across the tier and vary too much among fights for anyone to read anything meaningful in those tea leaves).
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
12645
01/29/2013 11:56 PMPosted by Tiriél
Not getting at you Sensations, but is there a reason why you switched from your Shaman to your Druid in this thread?


I'm pretty sure that everyone knows that I have my differences with Fleurs and Sensations. So I hope you'll believe me when I tell you that Fleurs and Sensations are two different people. I know this for a fact. They are not the same person, and it's very easy to tell that they're not. If you ignore Sensations on the forums, you will note that Fleurs is not ignored. If they were on the same account, then they would both be ignored if you ignored one of them.

Please stop perpetuating this insulting and completely baseless bit of gossip.

^
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
Not getting at you Sensations, but is there a reason why you switched from your Shaman to your Druid in this thread?

I think the core issue here is a matter of what constitutes 'fine'. You seem to think that as long as it's theoretically possible for a raid to beat content using a specific healer, that they are okay.

I think that balance needs to be a little closer than that, especially with what seems to be a return to whack-a-mole burst healing in MOP.

...Still laughing lolololol.

Depending on how you use it, I think there are many ways to interpret the meaning of "fine". Because it's used so loosely people begin to lose sight of what it really defines. It's hard to place a direct word on the current state of resto, so all I can do is describe to you how I see it.

  • Resto is not in a place where we can't complete content even if we have a less than optimal group setup.
  • Resto is fully capable of meeting the higher standard where you have to 2heal fights that are usually 3healed-- with the correct level of player skill behind the toon (just like any other class).
  • Resto doesn't struggle any less/more than the next healer enough to make a huge difference in order to complete the content.
  • With that said, we do need changes in order to finetune things regarding our toolset, but it's not because what we have isn't enough in order to complete the job. It's because our toolkit is lacking in general and has been so since day 1. Frozen said it best when he said:
    We've traditionally been time-limited, but Blizzard decided (at least temporarily) that they don't want us to be rejuv-blanketing and done what they can to discourage that play style. We are now mana-limited and cannot afford to blanket rejuv anymore, which would be fine, except that we have been given very little to fill the gap that's been left behind.
    Reply Quote
    100 Worgen Druid
    12800
    You really need to stop shifting to 10-mans Fluers. Very few, if any, have been arguing that druids need help in that format. At this point I cant help but feel like you are purposely doing so to just cloud the issue. Sensations has also done that in Druid threads. I understand you only have experience in 10-mans, and it obviously has effected your guys perception, but it is essentially off-topic at this point. And to be honest, this is one reason I was not that thrilled with the 10% buff to druids, it does nothing to address the issues with raid size and our heals not scaling as well. The change to Mushrooms also actually scales better down, so overall i think druids may end up too strong in 10-mans...

    But to adress your point, by using your same measure in the larger raid formats, trying to bring 3 druids to some of the most healing intensive fights in this tier would have held back, or even stopped progression. There were multiple fights where our Monk, Priests, or even Shaman/Paladins could do the job of 1.5 druids (more like 1.25 for S/P) , and when meeting DPS checks and 4-5 healing, the healer you bring is hugely important.

    I can assure you this is the case. I DO have the 25-man experience, having just gone through this tier at a high level, while also having two druids on our roster. As much as I love the class, we had to be smart and only bring 1 to many fights due to our significantly lower throughput. Your current line of reasoning is just flat our wrong for 25-mans... but I think you know that.
    Edited by Fangthorn on 1/30/2013 4:33 AM PST
    Reply Quote
    90 Pandaren Priest
    7670
    01/30/2013 04:11 AMPosted by Fangthorn
    Also, by using your same measure in the larger raid formats, trying to bring 3 druids to some of the most healing intensive fights in this tier would have held back, or even stopped progression. There were multiple fights where our Monk, Priests, or even Shaman/Paladins could do the job of 1.5 druids (more like 1.25 for S/P) , and when meeting DPS checks and 4-5 healing, the healer you bring is hugely important.


    Which fights would bringing more than 1 Resto Druid have held the raid back? IIRC, hasn't Method been bringing two Resto Druids to all their world firsts?

    I've raided with a Resto Druid and they are more than capable at keeping up, if slightly behind on fights that allow them to be sniped easily (especially by a Disc Priest). Certainly, their throughput feels sufficiently competent to complete any content this tier, even on fights that require the bare minimum of healers.
    Reply Quote

    Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

    Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

    Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

    Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

    Forums Code of Conduct

    Report Post # written by

    Reason
    Explain (256 characters max)
    Submit Cancel

    Reported!

    [Close]