The "Point" (or lack thereof) of Raiding

100 Undead Priest
17125
01/19/2013 04:28 PMPosted by Badilyn
Hi, if this winds up looking too long to read I apologize, enjoy your day. I recently left my raid group after losing sight of "the point" of raiding. I will admit fully, up front, that I am gear motivated - for better or for worse I am.


The reasons to raid have nothing to do with the loot. Raiding is about the people you are with and the journey you travel and the challenges you overcome. Gear is just a means to those ends.

If you play for loot, you will always be dissatisfied with not only the game, but life.
Edited by Poena on 1/20/2013 10:40 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Orc Death Knight
tys
9350
01/20/2013 02:17 PMPosted by Postonforums
These people used to be laughed at, they're now the majority.


And it's why the game is in the state that it is. It's sad that the most common type of post on these forums is the "I had bad RNG this week in LFR and I'm sick of getting bags of 28 gold" posts. It's why the typical 5 man has to be tuned so that it can be tanked by a dps, because of a player base that will not take the time to learn to play their class, all of their abilities, or to even work as a team.

It's deeply worrying to consider what this means for the future.

To the OP. I think you're burned out. You need to take a break from WoW. I'd recommend in your position to take a couple of months from WoW. Find another game. In your position, I'd cancel my subscription. Three months or so from now, take a look again at WoW. Ask yourself this question - do you want to play this game again? If so, then resubscribe. If not ... it's time to move on.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Hunter
8865
I think LFR as such was a badly implemented scheme simply designed to had out consolation prizes to people who didn't have the time or commitment to raid regularly. Not that there's anything wrong with such prizes, but a good deal of motivation comes from gear, and from doing a boss you haven't done before.

What percentage of the population got to see Sha of Fear N before killing him in LFR? It's, lorewise, the exact same guy. Killing him is an absolute joke, as it should be in LFR, because it is simply too much to ask 25 casual strangers to coordinate and kill something. When does the feeling of 'hey this is an epic boss, I'm glad I got to kill him' come? When I clear it on heroic? I don't think that'll happen this tier, for me anyway. 0.1% of the population has cleared 16/16 HC so far. If say these raiders have not touched LFR so far (which they most certainly have, but for argument's sake) then one can say they truly got the experience they were meant to. But this is a near non-existent percentage of the populace.

While I'm not one of those who sits on the rooftops screaming 'CASUALS ARE GETTING WELFARE GEAR' because heck, I'm not very hardcore myself, I do think rewarding the exact same gear visually for LFR, Normal and Heroic causes a lot of people to lose the motivation to push forward. It's the same gear, in a different color. Why bother? Some of you may say 'Well they shouldn't be raiding for gear'. Well the fact is, a lot of people do, and this ruins the whole effort-reward scheme. You put in zero effort and are rewarded with gear that looks pretty damn similar to what you'd get if you put in a LOT more effort. The impetus simply isn't there.

Rather than giving up on the community entirely and just tossing out purples infrequently for no reason, Blizzard should be encouraging people to play together better. You don't need to have LFR. Or if you do have LFR, design it intelligently, make people do different, but equally meaningful tasks, and give them helpful hints and encourage them to do the same. Maybe a points based system, that awards valor based on how many points you get. Completing a raid task (stunning a mob/interrupting a spell/taking a cleave hit) adds points to your tally. It's not a great idea, I admit, but I believe it's a lot better than what we have now, where people can afk for the whole fight, come back, and receive the exact same rewards as someone who topped dps. It's just not healthy for the game.
Reply Quote
Thank you to the folks who have replied since my last post. It's the "giving up on the community" bit directly above that hits the nail on the head, exactly the feeling I was trying to describe.
Edited by Badilyn on 1/21/2013 4:43 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Orc Warlock
13430
01/21/2013 02:55 AMPosted by Gulder
While I'm not one of those who sits on the rooftops screaming 'CASUALS ARE GETTING WELFARE GEAR' because heck, I'm not very hardcore myself, I do think rewarding the exact same gear visually for LFR, Normal and Heroic causes a lot of people to lose the motivation to push forward. It's the same gear, in a different color. Why bother? Some of you may say 'Well they shouldn't be raiding for gear'. Well the fact is, a lot of people do, and this ruins the whole effort-reward scheme. You put in zero effort and are rewarded with gear that looks pretty damn similar to what you'd get if you put in a LOT more effort. The impetus simply isn't there.


While I agree, there are just more and more every day of the opposite opinion. I think there was a thread about a week ago consisting of a complaint that 496 patterns didn't drop in LFR. And one before that complaining that the mount drops were Normal/Heroic exclusive. If even the vanity rewards given to Normal/Heroics are going to be clamored for by LFR players, then how will Blizzard proceed? Countless more experience LFR content than N/H, so should that be where design direction goes? I think you'd see the game become much more boring if that were the case.

Blizzard, unfortunately in my opinion, is setting a precedent that you don't need to put in effort to get a good amount of rewards in this game. The leveling process is pretty easy, 5 mans are a joke, and LFR may be even easier than that. And once you give players that, it becomes very difficult, if not impossible to take that away.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
01/21/2013 02:55 AMPosted by Gulder
When does the feeling of 'hey this is an epic boss, I'm glad I got to kill him' come?
This has less to do with LFR, and more to do with the fight being a snoozefest on Normal.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9540
You say this:

01/20/2013 05:12 PMPosted by Badilyn
I didn't raid JUST for loot.


but then this:

01/20/2013 05:12 PMPosted by Badilyn
My point was they're giving too much gear away through non-raid means to make raiding really necessary for me, based on my personal combination of motivating factors. I then offered some suggestions as to how things could change which would make me want to raid again.


If you really weren't just raiding for loot, then you wouldn't care that you could get pseudo-epics without raiding, and would just use it as a stepping stone into raiding like it's supposed to be. Instead, for whatever reason, you just want all the gear you need to finish dailies in as short a time as possible, to which I ask why? If for some twisted reason, that is the content you enjoy, then why the hell would you want to be done with it so quickly?

Also, where do you see LFR gear that's better than normal gear outside of set breakers?
Reply Quote
90 Orc Shaman
13550
01/21/2013 10:00 AMPosted by Darthelm
Also, where do you see LFR gear that's better than normal gear outside of set breakers?


Sha-touched weapons, probably.

Some of the ilvl 483 stuff out of HoF or Terrace LFR might compete with 489s out of MSV, depending on secondary stats.
Reply Quote
I posted links of all the items I have vendored or banked in favor of non-raid loot if you look above. I think there were 4 or 5 pieces.

I want to want to raid. That might not have been expressed clearly enough. I didn't make create this post as someone who bought their toon and/or got stonewalled during their first tier of raiding as some of you seem to think. I have hundreds of raid hours logged, many as the raid leader. I do know what it's like to overcome major challenges with the help of others and I do know that it's very, very good.

What I also know, is that there isn't enough incentive right now for me to be willing to commit the time to raiding, and that's largely because of the gear & progress in the legendary quest line I'm (wrongfully, I would suggest) able to obtain by playing on my own.
Edited by Badilyn on 1/21/2013 1:30 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Human Rogue
11320
What I also know, is that there isn't enough incentive right now for me to be willing to commit the time to raiding, and that's largely because of the gear & progress in the legendary quest line I'm (wrongfully, I would suggest) able to make by playing alone, without the help of others.


So then don't raid. It sounds like you are enjoying the non raid content more than the raid content. Blizz doesn't care how you play, just that you do play. Raiding is not about gearing, at all... and that seems to be all you care about. So why not take your welfare epics and leave the raiding to those of us who enjoy the content for the actual content portion of it?
Reply Quote
I did stop raiding. I want them to see why & maybe consider changing things so that I will want to raid again. That's the point of the thread.
Edited by Badilyn on 1/21/2013 1:41 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Tauren Druid
21550
I did stop raiding. I want them to see why & maybe consider changing things so that I will want to raid again. That's the point of the thread.


How though?

Nerfing normal / heroic is a terrible idea as it just encourages people to be lazy, or destroys progression guilds as they try to clear the raid before the nerfs. More gear will just have the LFR crowd complaining that normal/heroic gets better things that they do. Same with different bosses... (there's already an outcry that heroic mode gets an exclusive boss in the next raid for example).

What incentives do you want? Challenge is the main incentive along with social outside of the higher ilevel loot factor, join a proper heroic progression guild and you'll get the old feeling of BC raiding back... those fights are tough and it's a 'we did it' moment when you finally do kill them.
Reply Quote
100 Human Rogue
11320
I did stop raiding. I want them to see why & maybe consider changing things so that I will want to raid again. That's the point of the thread.


But why would they change anything? You stopped raiding because you didn't like it but continue to do the other things you do enjoy and still feel like you can make meaningful character progress. That was literally the point of all the changes made in this expansion. Working as intended.
Reply Quote
The interesting part is I don't really "enjoy" much of wow beside the raiding. It feels like work more than play.

Unfortunately I find myself stuck in a lifestyle loop of logging in & doing the same dailies for the same vps. I grind. I don't know why or what that says about my psychology, but I do. If there is a rep or quest to grind I'll grind it. Right now I'm on the legendary quest for 6000vps, so I'll keep going until I obtain them, and then keep going from there - and I'm excited about the prospects of needing to cooperate with others to progress the legendary quest from that point. It's about damned time.

Edited: thanks for your posts Waralia, I Just saw the last one after I had already replied to the last poster. I was just offering suggestions that might help me regain my motivation to raid, I can't say whether or not they'd work for anyone else. Your counter points are completely valid and appreciated.
Edited by Badilyn on 1/21/2013 2:08 PM PST
Reply Quote
1 Undead Rogue
0
Raiding bores me now because humans are inherently stupid.
Reply Quote
100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
The interesting part is I don't really "enjoy" much of wow beside the raiding. It feels like work more than play.

Unfortunately I find myself stuck in a lifestyle loop of logging in & doing the same dailies for the same vps. I grind. I don't know why or what that says about my psychology, but I do. If there is a rep or quest to grind I'll grind it. Right now I'm on the legendary quest for 6000vps, so I'll keep going until I obtain them, and then keep going from there - and I'm excited about the prospects of needing to cooperate with others to progress the legendary quest from that point. It's about damned time.

Edited: thanks for your posts Waralia, I Just saw the last one after I had already replied to the last poster. I was just offering suggestions that might help me regain my motivation to raid, I can't say whether or not they'd work for anyone else. Your counter points are completely valid and appreciated.


You're burned out.

Don't try and blame the game for that.

01/21/2013 02:23 PMPosted by Postonforums
and I'm excited about the prospects of needing to cooperate with others to progress the legendary quest from that point. It's about damned time.


Ya.... the issue comes with the fact you need to kill a mini 5-10 man boss, and afk 2 bgs, then it's back to waiting until the next annual pass step, which will be a 3 week affair in lfr, followed by waiting more.
Edited by Postonforums on 1/21/2013 2:24 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Shaman
8555
After you've spent a few raid nights wiping on a difficult encounter and finally, your team manages to do it all just right. You kill the boss and Vent explodes. That feeling is the point of raiding. If gear is your goal, you will burn out in a few months. The game is designed in such a way that the only true sustaining motivation is going to be clering bosses with your team for fun.

They basically give away epics now anyway. Gear is just a means to an end.
Reply Quote
There is no doubt in my mind you're right, but I don't think it's the burnout that is completely responsible for me dropping raiding as part of my wow time before dropping any other aspect of the game I continue to participate in. If raiding offered more for me, I would have chosen to drop something else instead.



How though?

What incentives do you want?


1. More vps for regular bosses so that I can drop some of the other tasks that I feel I "need" to do to cap vps for the week.

2. Decrease the level of the raid finder gear so that it's not even close when I have to compare the value of a raid finder piece to one that I have obtained through cooperative raiding.

3. Stop letting people advance any legendary quest lines without participating in cooperative play.

That's what I've come up with so far based on all the replies.
Edited by Badilyn on 1/21/2013 2:31 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Warrior
17115
01/21/2013 02:29 PMPosted by Badilyn
1. More vps for regular bosses so that I can drop some of the other tasks that I feel I "need" to do to cap vps for the week.


they want people to play more than just Tuesday

01/21/2013 02:29 PMPosted by Badilyn
2. Decrease the level of the raid finder gear so that it's not even close when I have to compare the value of a raid finder piece to one that I have obtained through cooperative raiding.


It already has been, outside of tier and a few small incidents (Weapons/trinkets) you don't compare pieces.

01/21/2013 02:29 PMPosted by Badilyn
3. Stop letting people advance any legendary quest lines without participating in cooperative play.


As much as it pains me to say it, LFR is cooperative, and I prefer legendaries to be co-op rather than competitive (Organizing all the dragonwrath alt runs so our whole guild had 1 for DS wasn't fun)
Reply Quote
20 Undead Warrior
9955
i dont raid for loot, but lets face it a large part of rpgs is player power and its logical for people to flock to things that give them the most player power for time spent. So a large majority of the playerbase is turned off to normal mode raiding, when doing dailies and lfr would be the best thing to do in terms of advancing thier character. The effort for reward is way out of whack.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]