The "Point" (or lack thereof) of Raiding

Very well worded. Raiding is FOR SURE the most effort-intensive component of wow. It's exhausting. The rewards should match that effort.

That being said, I've spent in inordinate amount of time dicking around doing dailies gathering the vps and running the LFR's I needed to obtain the gear I have. Maybe, as far as the devs are concerned, my "less concentrated but longer" effort is on par with the "shorter for bur more arduous" efforts put in by raiders clearing more than double the bosses that I have, yet stuck with a similar item level? I dunno.

I guess I feel that allowing me to choose a slower, easier path to the same level of success isn't right.
Edited by Badilyn on 1/21/2013 3:03 PM PST
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90 Worgen Druid
13790
01/21/2013 01:26 PMPosted by Badilyn
What I also know, is that there isn't enough incentive right now for me to be willing to commit the time to raiding, and that's largely because of the gear


Every single one of your posts carries the message that your main focus in the game is to improve your character's gear.

You've decided that raiding doesn't improve your character's gear enough, so you stopped doing it. That's fine. But I'm not sure what your point is apart from that.

You titled your thread "The point of raiding". The point of raiding for most of us is NOT the gear. There's your answer.
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90 Troll Hunter
8865
You need to do one of two things
1) Join a hardcore guild and hit H Sha face first, or
2) Find a guild where you have fun raiding.

You can always find a guild that does both, but they're rare, and the atmosphere is always very different in a hardcore guild. The pressure to perform is constant.

I raid because I like playing my class and doing challenging activities with a group of friends. It's the process that's enjoyable. The rewards, including gear, are a bonus. Some people do use raiding as a means to an end. They're the people who push hardcore raiding full time, and they want to get to H Sha ASAP. That works just as well. Raiding for gear primarily is inherently unsatisfactory imo, because you're getting rewarded without being challenged, as I mentioned earlier. You only get a good night's rest when you've put in a hard day's work.

A lot of what you've said is correct, but as you can see from most of the people posting here, despite agreeing with you, we haven't stopped raiding.
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90 Human Rogue
10910
01/21/2013 02:53 PMPosted by Badilyn
I guess I feel that allowing me to choose a slower, easier path to the same level of success isn't right.


How is it the same? It's not even close. 483=/=509 or even 496.
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90 Human Warrior
16680
2) Instate nerfs for regular raids at known intervals. All Star teams have a predetermined amount of time to work on release content to get their kills before the nerfs come in. I would suggest 4 week intervals to start with 10 percent nerfs taking place after that, and another 10 percent 4 weeks later, etc. People could make arguments for any interval, longer or shorter, but I'm using this as a concept timeline to get the discussion started. The point to the nerfs is in hopes of stimulating progress instead of having groups get stagnant & sick of running the same bosses over and over week after week. Raid finder already makes me tired of seeing the same encounters over and over again - progression in normal modes NEEDS to happen for average groups to stay interested.


Your other ideas are actually not bad. They may not be great, but they definitely have merit. But this one is just plain bad. They did this in the past and all it did was water down the raid. By the end of DS, LFR was 'more difficult' than normal DS. There is no need to gradually nerf content. The only nerfs should be adjustments to tuning to get the fight where it was intended to be or bug fixes.

Yes, I am only 7/16 normal. We've had multiple sub 10% wipes on ta'yak. We'll spend more time than some guilds on garalon and less than others. But we're working on and we can down it. We don't want a watered down version. We want to down the same boss this week that other groups downed 2-3 weeks or 2 months ago. We want to do the same boss that another group gets 2-3 weeks after us. We're big boys and girls. We can handle it. It may take us a little longer, but we can handle it.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
11320
01/20/2013 10:39 PMPosted by Poena
Hi, if this winds up looking too long to read I apologize, enjoy your day. I recently left my raid group after losing sight of "the point" of raiding. I will admit fully, up front, that I am gear motivated - for better or for worse I am.


The reasons to raid have nothing to do with the loot. Raiding is about the people you are with and the journey you travel and the challenges you overcome. Gear is just a means to those ends.

If you play for loot, you will always be dissatisfied with not only the game, but life.


This game was clearly designed with Gear being a form of reward in addition to a tool for progression. They are not, nor do they need to be mutually exclusive.

i dont raid for loot, but lets face it a large part of rpgs is player power and its logical for people to flock to things that give them the most player power for time spent. So a large majority of the playerbase is turned off to normal mode raiding, when doing dailies and lfr would be the best thing to do in terms of advancing thier character. The effort for reward is way out of whack


If people are migrating away from raiding because they have an alternative they enjoy more, perhaps they never enjoyed raiding to begin with?

Oh wait, no. We're just lazy, incompetent, greedy, entitled or whatever ad hominem you want to toss around.
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90 Orc Shaman
13750
01/22/2013 07:31 AMPosted by Arayden
This game was clearly designed with Gear being a form of reward in addition to a tool for progression. They are not, nor do they need to be mutually exclusive.


In LFR, they are mutually exclusive. There is no progression in LFR.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
11320
In LFR, they are mutually exclusive. There is no progression in LFR..


You are required to reach a certain gear level to progress in LFR; Therefore, progression in a form does in fact exist.

Incorrect Edit.
Edited by Arayden on 1/22/2013 9:32 AM PST
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Thanks again for the replies. Kahan, I amended what I thought should happen to increase my interest in raiding later in the thread based on replies like yours advising the feelings towards general nerfs are negative (it might be on the last page by now but yes, that idea got overwhelming negative feedback).

Hyjinx is also right - there is no progress in LFR. The only feeling of accomplishment I ever got out of LFR was an early garalon kill as it did take a few tries & required some effort.

I'm glad that most of the folks replying have continued to enjoy raiding - it lets me see quite clearly that my issues with motivation are in fact my own, and not reflected by the larger group.
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90 Orc Shaman
13750
01/22/2013 08:54 AMPosted by Arayden
[quote="77084381763"]This game was clearly designed with Gear being a form of reward in addition to a tool for progression. They are not, nor do they need to be mutually exclusive.


You are required to reach a certain gear level to progress in LFR; Therefore, progression in a form does in fact exist.


A) Incorrectly quoted

B) No, you're required to reach a certain gear level to enter LFR, not to progress through it. Once you can enter it, being able to kill everything inside is a given.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
11320
01/22/2013 09:03 AMPosted by Hyjinx
[quote]

You are required to reach a certain gear level to progress in LFR; Therefore, progression in a form does in fact exist.


A) Incorrectly quoted

B) No, you're required to reach a certain gear level to enter LFR, not to progress through it. Once you can enter it, being able to kill everything inside is a given.


You are required to reach Gear Level X to Enter MGSV, and a higher I-Level to move onto Heart of Fear. This is, in a sense, a form of progression.
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90 Orc Shaman
13750


A) Incorrectly quoted

B) No, you're required to reach a certain gear level to enter LFR, not to progress through it. Once you can enter it, being able to kill everything inside is a given.


You are required to reach Gear Level X to Enter MGSV, and a higher I-Level to move onto Heart of Fear. This is, in a sense, a form of progression.


That's arbitrary. The next raid tier will all be 1 big raid and as such (far as I know) won't have that, anyway.
Edited by Hyjinx on 1/22/2013 9:41 AM PST
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90 Undead Rogue
11565
Jokes on you kids. I raid to parse. You are all a tool to increase my epeen.

Now where is my tricks rotation? AR is almost up!
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90 Tauren Druid
9425
01/19/2013 04:37 PMPosted by Mneme
The "point" of raiding is organized, coordinated large group play. You don't get that in LFR.


That's what keeps me coming back. I've been raiding with most of my guild since Wrath. Some of them I've been raiding with since TBC. Sometimes I even get loot (currently have four "real raid" for each spec, and a total of eight raid finder items), sometimes I don't. Considering that I have as much LFR loot as I do "real raid" loot (at times I've certainly had more LFR loot), and am 16/16 in LFR but only 9/16 in normal raids, if I were raiding for gear or even boss kills, I would have quit raiding long ago.

01/19/2013 04:28 PMPosted by Badilyn
There should be little to no decision making to be done when you obtain a regular item level piece for a slot you have a raid finder piece in.


That pretty well is the case. On my resto set, my trinkets to choose from are the LFR versions of Qin'Xi, Spirits of the Sun, and the VP trinkets. I currently use the Spirts and the VP trinket. If a regular Qin'Xi drops for me, you best believe I'll be putting that on in a heartbeat. Or my weapon. Right now I have the LFR Un'Sok's Scalpel. It replaced the LFR Tihan Scepter. But if I get the regular version of Tihan's, that Scalpel is going in the trash heap.
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There's nothing that feels epic about the idea of beating normal mode bosses - the story is in LFR and the challenge/loot is in heroic - so convincing people to try to progress on normal mode fights is often harder than actually killing the bosses.

I play in one of the more progressed guilds on my server (not saying much outside my server, but whatever), we're one of about 4 guilds that regularly manages to field a raid group multiple times a week for normal raiding. You'd think there'd be a lot of demand for open slots on days when a regular raider can't make it, but as it turns out, this is not the case. The general lack of alts in MoP, combined with the lack of enthusiasm caused by LFR, means it's often completely impossible to find a single player capable of even 40k dps on Stone Guard.

My point is, I've encountered the OP's point of view quite a bit. There needs to be something in normal raids that allows guilds to get people excited about running them. Right now there's nothing (except gear, and the gear in normal isn't even much of an upgrade a lot of the time, over LFR/valor), and that lack of excitement is the biggest impediment to progress normal mode raid groups are dealing with right now.


Agreed
I was looking for a post on how I feel about normal mode raiding, and this puts it perfectly.
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It was an excellent post. I'm going to ahead and suggest that 5.2 is going to deal with a few of my issues - mainly there won't be any lfr loot competing with the normal mode stuff as there won't be the graduating ilvl situation we had with MSV/HOF loot.

Of interest (and unbeknownst to me until recently) I guess they implemented "cutting edge" achs for those who downed the heroic bosses prior to the launch of 5.2, something else I suggested earlier in the topic might increase the drive to raid (I was suggesting they call them "leader" achs, but whatever they work the same way), maybe in the future they could include similar ones for killing normal modes before the next tier drops, just to increase the interest a bit more in raiding normals.

I also think they could leave these available in some iteration for groups that wish to attempt the fights at the appropriate level/item level at any point in the future, similar to the Herald of the Titans ach.
Edited by Badilyn on 2/5/2013 7:12 AM PST
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