What killed Triage?

90 Troll Shaman
17270
After reading a Lifeingroup5 blog describing the dissappoint in triage being dead in heroic raiding, I realized... Triage is actually already dead.

I have about the same amount of spirit I had in DS. (Scaled up based on spell cost)
Players below 80% health generally are in 1-shot range for multiple mechanics.
The raid can bounce from near 0 to full in under 10 seconds (depends on CD's used).
Tanks can die very fast.

So where did it go wrong?
Health Pools:
-Was the health pool increase too small for gaining levels?
-Does gear have too low of a throughput-to-stam ratio?
-Is the health from each point of stam too low?
Healing Throughput
-Did heals get overbuffed when 5.0 was released?
-Is AoE healing too powerful relative to single target?

Some things to note in PVP:
-Health pools are too low relative to damage so players start with 40% resil.
-Healing is nerfed by battle fatigue.

I argue this... if health pools were appropriately sized, you could cut baseline resil in half, remove battle fatigue, and reintroduce some level of triage into raids. On top of that, AoE healing has gone totally bonkers in terms of it's HPS/HPM versus single target heals.

Sadly, we are mid-xpac now. So probably no significant changes. Which means the only options left are:
-More stam on future tier's gear (but no so much that they aren't upgrades)
-Raidzone +health buffs.
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90 Troll Shaman
13250
Was a good article to read.

Pretty sure Vixsen nailed it on the head. This tier had very little constant damage and focused more on large one shot mechanics. Which in turn kept the game going as world of cd craft. Most of these abilities will one shot you below 60% health or so. Which in turns makes it that people have to be kept topped off at all times.

Makes the game more about timing than making a decision in the moment on who will be best served with a heal at a specific time, because everyone needs to be healed up always.

Beside T11 and really only the first couple months everything has been about big damage followed up by lulls. With the way mana/spririt increases throughout the expacs it is hard to design an encounter that would make triage have a comeback. Unless they create a fight that nerfs the amount of heals you can cast or something along those lines.

edit: i also see the squish coming in the next expac. Pretty sure they floated that out pre mop to get people ready for it. Think it needs to be done as stuff gets out of control quickly with the sheer amount of stats gained.
Edited by Harpoa on 1/21/2013 9:01 AM PST
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90 Orc Shaman
15810
You're right in that there are a lot more burst moments, but there is some triage still has a roll even in that scenario since a lot of cases the burst is uneven.

Heroic vizier - in phase 2 you will be stuck with 2 people not sitting in an attenuation bubble. One of these people (one will be a tank who is fine not in a bubble, and the other will be a dps who may or may not have a cooldown depending on your makeup) will take a metric crapton of healing during force and verve but so will the entire raid. If I didn't weave in GHW's / healing surges along with my aoe healing, that target was definetly going to die.

Heroic blade lord - people who have wind step without a big cooldown (i.e. no paladins in the raid) are in severe risk of dieing if you don't use single targets to make sure they get priority in addition to aoe heals when stacking for the unseen strike.

Garalon normal - This one is more player error, but the pheromone target is in severe danger of dieing if they mess up and stand still too long while a crush happens.

Can't think of triage really for wind lord as that is just healing up the rain of blades...

Amber shaper - Not really triage, but the debuff in the last phase is something different.

Grand empress on our first kill felt like triage when we weren't trying to get every single person up with massive aoe heals (mana was tight etc going into there the first or second week) and we had to rely on single targets near the end (a healer was down) which is kinda how I believed it was intended because of the calamity mechanic. But I admit, on subsequent kills we just aoe healed because it was easy enough to top people off etc.

But to be fair, I didn't think triage really existed in cataclysm when they proposed it. Like the raids in Tier 11 had obscene tank damage on some fights and lots of mechanics where you would drop like you said to 80%. But they also had mechanics like I described above about HoF (where you had to play with single targets on specific targets even during key moments of where stuff goes crazy in a raid). Burst cooldowns were still very very apparent back then and I can go into more detail if you want.

I think blizzard has it right now with how triage is turning out. You still need to heal lights out during tough situations, but they have incorporated mechanics that force you to not just boringly aoe heal the whole time which is good design IMO.

I should add that except for the grand empress examples, these are not the exact ideas of what "triage" means. But I cannot fathom that they would create 12 encounters like empress. Instead the way they do it now works a ton for me at least.
Edited by Gardiff on 1/21/2013 9:37 AM PST
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1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
I think the issue is that there are some mechanics which are intended to be simply avoided rather than healed through. Like on Elegon if you don't clear your stacks, then end up killed by Total Annihilation. That isn't a "one-shot" sort of situation that healers are expected to heal, the player is expected to die because they are an idiot.

But sometimes you have those mechanics which, maybe because the player has a lot of health, that end up only taking them to <10% health instead of killing them. Then you indirectly create an expectation that those players are heal-able and should be healed up. Even if they do end up surviving, that still doesn't mean that was how the encounter was designed.

When you remove the people who expect to be healed through mechanics that are intended to kill them, much of the burstiness of damage in raids is greatly diminished.
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90 Pandaren Monk
8140
resto shammies and MW monks.
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
Yeah. I guess looking back at the extremes... LK melee'ing for 80-90% of a tanks max health on heroic...

There has been worse.

And we probably won't reach that because the heals are too small. The issue I see happening in another tier when HPS goes up 40% while health only goes up 20%... how do you make mechanics that only hit a few people at a time if they have to hit hard enough to be challenging? You can't, damage will have to hit more people over more time in order to challenge healers. Tanks will see even less effective health scaling since a larger percent of their hit points come from base+gems.

I do think that as it stands right now, with our current gear, the healing:health ratio has allowed for a wide variety of fight mechanics, which is good. Hopefully scaling doesn't change that too much as people gear up in t16 normal 537 gear.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Blood Elf Paladin
HC
11385
I don't think triage is 'dead' as much as the playstyle difference is only more apparent in the line between normals and heroics.

As someone stated earlier, with larger health pools there are more things to play with but that's more of design effecting other design rather than triage being 'dead.'
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
Some classes were more successful with the Triage model than others. I don't really feel like it's a one-size-fits-all model.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/21/2013 12:01 PMPosted by Qùess
Some classes were more successful with the Triage model than others. I don't really feel like it's a one-size-fits-all model.


^^
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90 Night Elf Druid
5475
I feel like players don't have enough health to support the use of slow, efficient heals. By the time they've taken enough damage to need the heal, they're not reliably going to live long enough for the cast to finish. Even tanks have only a few seconds TTL.

Not to mention, even if you do try to use a slower heal, you'll probably just get sniped by someone else who cast their flash heal equivalent or a CD instaheal anyway.

Players need a couple hundred thousand more HP across the board -- more if damage is going to increase in future tiers, which it will probably almost have to. That way speed won't have to be the most important aspect of a heal.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10625
I don't know, but if "triage" is still being used as if it were synonymous with "spamming that horrible, torturous, slow, boring, cheap yet inefficient heal everyone but monks has" or "heals so small you can barely see health bars move," then it needed to die.

I use "triage" to mean "thinking about spell and target selection and prioritizing people based on their health, location, debuffs, odds of standing in fire before they get healed again, and relative importance to the raid." It doesn't matter how fast health bars are moving, except in that you have to think faster and predict better (which is a good thing).

By my standard, it's not dead, and it's not going to die unless we see further proliferation of non-targeted ground and smart heals or return to blanket HoT/shield spam.

(Hell, even in Wrath of Spam, Holy priests were still triage specialists. So even that didn't entirely kill it.)
Edited by Kaels on 1/21/2013 5:33 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
13165
01/21/2013 12:01 PMPosted by Qùess
Some classes were more successful with the Triage model than others. I don't really feel like it's a one-size-fits-all model.


I can agree with this. I don't see how it was expected to last when several healing kits were not designed for it and were never altered to be designed for it. It just doesn't really function correctly vs kits that are clearly designed for raid healing.

If they had extended the concept beyond "we want a crap, a fast, and a big single target healing spell for all classes" to include comprehensive raid healing and single/multitarget CD toolboxes as well, they might have gotten somewhere, but that likely would have directly conflicted with "class flavor".
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
While true Triage might be impossible, mainly because most classes have enough mana to spam something that does more healing than "Slow Efficient Heal", I still think a hit point pool increase is recommended at this junction of time/tier.

TTL of tanks has gotten very low very quickly.
Fast heals are pretty much the go to for tank/debuff healing for classes where the efficiency isn't that big of a difference, due to lack of response time for anything else.

The question I have is what has lead to needing such a low TTL on tanks in order to be a challenge. I'm blaming the "healer count" being higher now that tanks heal themselves, and AoE healing being 2-3x higher HPS/HPM than the single target heals.

mmm blanket of HoTs and AoE heals maintaining tanks... You can PoH the tank group to get all 2-3 tanks plus designated debuffers healed (depends on fight). Maintaining whatever mists on both tanks makes uplift a tank heal. Making sure healing rain hits Tanks and Melee, while keeping up ES/riptide, then Chain Heal off the tank which makes sense since you need riptide to make Chain Heal viable over single target. WG hits tanks most of the time, plus it is easy to use AoE healing tactics of rejuv on every tank. Beacon reflects AoE...
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
I'll be blunt - Triage was boring as hell in raids. In fact, Triage never existed in Cata raids past the Beta. Why? Because to create an environment where Triage worked, they had to dial back the damage significantly, and it ended up being a complete snoozefest.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
01/22/2013 11:13 AMPosted by Tiriél
I'll be blunt - Triage was boring as hell in raids. In fact, Triage never existed in Cata raids past the Beta. Why? Because to create an environment where Triage worked, they had to dial back the damage significantly, and it ended up being a complete snoozefest.


This.

Triage never really existed to be honest, at least not in recent memory.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/22/2013 11:22 AMPosted by Tailias
I'll be blunt - Triage was boring as hell in raids. In fact, Triage never existed in Cata raids past the Beta. Why? Because to create an environment where Triage worked, they had to dial back the damage significantly, and it ended up being a complete snoozefest.


This.

Triage never really existed to be honest, at least not in recent memory.


oh my god, Tails, you race-traitor! HUMAN?!!!!

Also: It existed in BC that I remember, before Sunwell anyway. Downranking! I wonder that the Devs never realized that the other reason Downranking worked was because it made the spells faster AND cheaper?
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I would say it died because it isn't particularly fun for many people.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11615
I think Tier 11 was the best they have ever done with healing. Mana was tight, aoe healing was non exsistent compared to today, triage was much more important. As a holy pally beacon swapping + holy / divine light spamming was a lot more fun then DS HR spamming. Today on my monk I keep up 2 buffs and then for the rest of the encounter I watch my little ReM icon and spam jab + uplift. I use TFT and Chi Brew when needed. I am punished heavily for doing anything other then that since everything else is a huge drain on my mana.

Another major issue is mana tide. It is absurd how much mana it gives back.

The following tiers are going to be insane with how much damage mechanics will be putting out and I fear that the only way to reliably survive them is with absorbs (increases your health pool who would have thought of that?).
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Sorry, Idrunk, but Triage never existed in T11. Sorry, but it didn't. Damage was far, far too intense to even think about Triage healing.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11615
01/22/2013 01:11 PMPosted by Tiriél
Sorry, Idrunk, but Triage never existed in T11. Sorry, but it didn't. Damage was far, far too intense to even think about Triage healing.


Maybe I'm mixing up aoe / single target healing for triage. As a holy paladin we didn't have an aoe toolkit. We had holy radiance fire and forget every so often and lod. We either had to spam heals on the beacon target in order to generate HP for Lod or we just didn't aoe heal. Our normal rotation was if I remember correctly was Hs -> Cs -> Hs / triage -> lod. Hr if it was off cd and when needed. Firelands continued this trend but triage went from using some hl to never. Ds was spam healing.

As a monk the only single target heal I can afford is Healing spheres and they are clunky to use and don't synergize with anything or Soothing into EM which overheals anyways.
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