Rogues on the PTR are flat out broken

90 Blood Elf Priest
6415
On live rogues aren't fun to play, outside of cd's rogue damage is stale, terrible and not fun.

I would agree with this.

My rogue is at 74, and I've leveled him mostly through battlegrounds.

There's the fun of insta-gibbing, but apart from that, Rogue mechanics aren't fun.

On the one hand, I understand why GC thinks Rogue is a well designed class. The Energy model does have theoretical advantages - e.g., DPS does not suffer as much from lag.

But the end result is not fun to play.

And yes, instead of making them fun, it seems the only thing they know how to do is to make them OP and obnoxious, so that people would play them because it offers an advantage, instead of because they're fun.


The other issue with rogues being the low playerbase. They are not an easy class to maximise the potential of, good rogues still do exceptionally well because they play them to their niche at the highest potential. It isn't a class which lends itself to those without the capacity to maximise the usefulness of their given toolkit. So what to do in order to increase the playerbase? Make the most accessible, easiest tools to use ridiculously over the top so they have a lower entry point at which you can be successful.

I mean I'd love to play a rogue if I didn't live in Western Australia and hover around 300ms. That sort of latency is not conducive to good Rogue play.
Edited by Anurakis on 1/24/2013 3:41 PM PST
90 Undead Rogue
6215
You're ignoring sizable burst, and even then.

God-like control is a gimmick? Smokebomb sure, but that's part of a whole package.


Rogues burst isnt bad paired with CD stacking of trinkets, racials and all that type of !@#$.

Fully geared rogues have 19% crit, no crit enhancing talents or cds. So that is what we get when we shadowdance, paired with the agility trinket is almost a must to make sure ambush actually crits.

Like i said control is good, it isnt God-like, that was cata with 70% slow and undodgeable, unparriable shiv. Sapping out of a blind is really strong, not denying that at all.

Rogues are a tricky class to balanced but i think removing poisons from ST will make the ability comparable to anticipation and mfd.

In arena right now rogues are pretty hard to keep but, we have dual skills that can be used for offense or defensive, when used offensively rogues then become a extremely viable kill target.
Ptr hasn't changed that.
90 Undead Rogue
4445
fwiw, inside/outside dps spec would be fun to play provided it wasn't gimmicky. I don't want a super-powered Shuriken Toss. I really like having a ranged combo point builder. With throw no longer applying poison and rogue survivability what it is, ST is sort of a necessity in that it allows Rogue to continue balancing slice, recup, apply a rupture, etc. without having to go sit next to a facemelting DK or warrior for several seconds.
Edited by Crookston on 1/24/2013 3:55 PM PST
100 Human Rogue
19405
01/24/2013 03:02 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Worth mentioning: Shuriken Toss shouldn't be proccing poisons.


Wait! Hold the phone... The current Shuriken Toss applies crippling poison if that is the non-lethal poison chosen via self buff. eg, I'm not talking about the Deadly Brew set bonus from PVP gloves that allows a second non-lethal poison. So, is this staying the same in 5.2, or is it intended that Shuriken Toss will not apply poisons at all? I'm confused by the phrase "proccing poisons" as used in the blue statement above verses "application of poisons."

I don't PVP. I loathe PVP. I do however use Shuriken Toss all the time for doing dailies and farming old content. I love it. If they're taking poison application away from the talent because it's too op in PVP I'm going to be very angry. Again.
100 Orc Shaman
15380
01/24/2013 03:22 PMPosted by Sociopaths
On live rogues are not fun and gimmicky, the only reason a rogue is brought is for smokebomb and the control they have.


fun is very subjective, and most classes are designed around dps cds now not just rogues.
90 Blood Elf Priest
6415
01/24/2013 03:47 PMPosted by Lucky
Worth mentioning: Shuriken Toss shouldn't be proccing poisons.


Wait! Hold the phone... The current Shuriken Toss applies crippling poison if that is the non-lethal poison chosen via self buff. eg, I'm not talking about the Deadly Brew set bonus from PVP gloves that allows a second non-lethal poison. So, is this staying the same in 5.2, or is it intended that Shuriken Toss will not apply poisons at all? I'm confused by the phrase "proccing poisons" as used in the blue statement above verses "application of poisons."

I don't PVP. I loathe PVP. I do however use Shuriken Toss all the time for doing dailies and farming old content. I love it. If they're taking poison application away from the talent because it's too op in PVP I'm going to be very angry. Again.


I will break both your legs. With my left hand.
90 Undead Priest
6600
In arena right now rogues are pretty hard to keep but, we have dual skills that can be used for offense or defensive, when used offensively rogues then become a extremely viable kill target.
Ptr hasn't changed that.


And it shouldn't. If you use cloak offensively. YOU SHOULD BE PUNISHED IF THE OTHER TEAM REACTS. This is good design. Just because warriors can pop Die By The Sword and pop all burst cooldowns, and feral can do the same with its 5+ offensive cooldowns and furwall doesn't make it good design. It's bad design, and rogues shouldn't be brought up to that, everyone should be brought down.

You're ignoring sizable burst, and even then.

God-like control is a gimmick? Smokebomb sure, but that's part of a whole package.


Rogues burst isnt bad paired with CD stacking of trinkets, racials and all that type of !@#$.

Fully geared rogues have 19% crit, no crit enhancing talents or cds. So that is what we get when we shadowdance, paired with the agility trinket is almost a must to make sure ambush actually crits.

Like i said control is good, it isnt God-like, that was cata with 70% slow and undodgeable, unparriable shiv. Sapping out of a blind is really strong, not denying that at all.


Enhance's burst isn't bad when paired with trinkets and racials and all dat !@#$.

See what I did there? This isn't a valid argument, as burst trinkets are the meta of the game. Nearly every dps who is competitive has one.

And? What are you comparing to what this crit should be? If you're comparing it to Cata, just stop now.

It was god-like in Cata when compared to everyone else, and it's god-like now compared to everyone else, moreso next patch.
90 Undead Rogue
9585
Wait wait wait, did your glad mage friend here have a 1v1 with a rogue ?
90 Orc Rogue
3750
In arena right now rogues are pretty hard to keep but, we have dual skills that can be used for offense or defensive, when used offensively rogues then become a extremely viable kill target.
Ptr hasn't changed that.


And it shouldn't. If you use cloak offensively. YOU SHOULD BE PUNISHED IF THE OTHER TEAM REACTS. This is good design. Just because warriors can pop Die By The Sword and pop all burst cooldowns, and feral can do the same with its 5+ offensive cooldowns and furwall doesn't make it good design. It's bad design, and rogues shouldn't be brought up to that, everyone should be brought down.



Rogues burst isnt bad paired with CD stacking of trinkets, racials and all that type of !@#$.

Fully geared rogues have 19% crit, no crit enhancing talents or cds. So that is what we get when we shadowdance, paired with the agility trinket is almost a must to make sure ambush actually crits.

Like i said control is good, it isnt God-like, that was cata with 70% slow and undodgeable, unparriable shiv. Sapping out of a blind is really strong, not denying that at all.


Enhance's burst isn't bad when paired with trinkets and racials and all dat !@#$.

See what I did there? This isn't a valid argument, as burst trinkets are the meta of the game. Nearly every dps who is competitive has one.

And? What are you comparing to what this crit should be? If you're comparing it to Cata, just stop now.

It was god-like in Cata when compared to everyone else, and it's god-like now compared to everyone else, moreso next patch.


Frost mages have god like control now compared to everyone else.

See what I did there? I made a comment with nothing to back it up, and sounded like a total w#nker whilst doing it! Great job, your posts give me cancer mate....

Perhaps you can explain to the unwashed masses how exactly rogue control is currently god like?
100 Human Rogue
19405
01/24/2013 03:52 PMPosted by Anurakis
I will break both your legs. With my left hand.


you're the worst kind of person

like worse than serial killers


Right, because I don't enjoy PVP and having my PVE gameplay nerfed *again* due to PVP issues is always fun.

Thank you for your useless responses. Grow up.

I'm still hoping Daxxarri was referring to the PVP set bonus, which would make better sense.
90 Blood Elf Priest
6415
01/24/2013 04:14 PMPosted by Lucky
I will break both your legs. With my left hand.


you're the worst kind of person

like worse than serial killers


Right, because I don't enjoy PVP and having my PVE gameplay nerfed *again* due to PVP issues is always fun.

Thank you for your useless responses. Grow up.

I'm still hoping Daxxarri was referring to the PVP set bonus, which would make better sense.


So you come on the arena forums to complain?

I will. Break. Your. Legs.

NO EXCEPTIONS.
90 Gnome Death Knight
11820
Oh yeah another season of rogue domination. Just what I wanted.
90 Human Mage
3775
I will break both your legs. With my left hand.


you're the worst kind of person

like worse than serial killers


Right, because I don't enjoy PVP and having my PVE gameplay nerfed *again* due to PVP issues is always fun.

Thank you for your useless responses. Grow up.

I'm still hoping Daxxarri was referring to the PVP set bonus, which would make better sense.


Because this game should be structured around you and you only.

Get the !@#$ out, scumbag. Sorry that your precious little bit of QoL was taken away.
Edited by Eva on 1/24/2013 4:22 PM PST
86 Dwarf Priest
0
The worst thing I found is that all of them seem to take the following;

1. Shuriken toss
2. Shadowstep
3. Paralytic poison

I find the way Shuriken toss stacks poisons to be ridiculously dubious at best. If you manage to make range as a caster (which is extremely difficult, especially on account of double cloak) you're practically not even rewarded for it. I'm not rewarded for playing well and making room? How is this logical?

I also find the 5 second cheap shots and 4.5 second garottes to be mind twistingly infuriating.

On a related note, given the new talents and how redirect can be used so frequently it seems to make shadow dance swaps fan-!@#$ing-tastic. Man, the damage in a dance. It's just... don't know what to say - and it's so accessible!

btw which server are you on?


When this post was written, we didn't have the blue response on the shuriken toss, but you are still rewarded for making room even if they do apply poisons (which they shouldn't). But, my AA dps is a hell of a lot lower than my normal DPS, and even better, a peel during shadow dance, and there goes shadow dance.

5 second cheap shots and 4.5 second garrotes are already in the game, and rogues are currently underpowered.

Redirect has ALWAYS had the same cooldown as Shadow Dance (at the least, it could be shorter with the now-removed level 90 talent Versatility).

And *gasp* Rogues deal damage during their highest cooldown cooldown that lasts 8 seconds and requires someone to prepare for it? I know it can be hard to see, but a rogue
who is pooling their energy (the PvP set bonus change is huge here) is most likely about to burst SOMEONE. Don't peel them while they pool energy. Wait for them to either start dancing or burning energy. If they don't dance, and they don't burn energy, they're not being very scary.

Changes that affect their burst: The PvP set bonus change - This allows the rogue level 15 talent that keeps them in stealth for 3 seconds to actually be extremely useful. Currently, it is very easy to run out of energy (110 energy, 50 energy for CS/Garrote, 60 for Ambush). On the PTR, they have more energy (I can't remember how much, but it gives rogues another stealth move).

Vanish on a lower cooldown: Combined with above, this is big for their burst. Rogues do somewhat of an opening burst and then shadow dance. Vanish allows for more on-demand openers (once again though, if they want to use vanish to re-open for burst, they WILL be pooling energy, unless they want to use it mid-burst for CC, which means they probably have the energy cost reduction level 15 talent).

Prep: Another round of cooldowns is another set of uptime.

You said it yourself, their burst got buffed (mostly this is because of the energy cap buff and NOT a direct damage increase) but their survivability didn't change that much.
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