Tier 15-Massive ilvl Discrepancy

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100 Human Rogue
11315
It seems too inflated to me but I can't see it killing off normal T14. T15 LFR won't get you into ToT normal all that quickly. You will need to run T14 if you want to run ToT before T16 is released.
90 Orc Death Knight
tys
9350
I really hope the current ilvl that these items are posted on the PTR are only for testing. Heroic T12 was an item level of 391 with a few 397 items while T13 LFR was 384-390. Sure there's the current item upgrades but this doesn't nearly close the gap between t14 and t15 due to the hard cap of 3000 valor (used to be 4k) and the weekly cap of 1k with the price of upgrading being 750.

If anything I was expecting LFR ToT to be around 490-495 max and definitely not 500+.


Yeah but the set bonuses from the T13 gear was very powerful in general. Then there were other considerations like Gurth.
90 Pandaren Monk
12970
i thought this was expected because blizzard opted to go with mega damage instead of an item crunch this xpac?

don't expect it to change until the next expansion.... at which there will certainly be an item crunch
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9540
I'm kind of pissed about this as well. I was really looking forward to not having to run LFR for the ret of the expansion, but now, unless I manage to get several heroic drops a week from now until 5.2 drops I'm going to have to slog through ToT idiot mode for a few weeks.
100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
at least the "good" side of lfr forcing raiders to "optionally" not cut off their right arm, is that the first couple weeks won't be complete wipefests, until we start getting the "22k is good for 500 ilevel" players and "Tank dps doesnt matter" tanks reforging into spirit start happening.

Item Crunch could easily be done by not having LFR screw up everything.
90 Worgen Warlock
HiJ
9275
The gap they seem to be maintaining is the BiS -> normal mode gap, which is similar to the BiS -> normal mode gap from FL -> DS. FL heroic items were 391 and normal DS drops were 397, for an improvement of 6 item levels. 2/2 heroic T14 is 517 and normal ToT is 522, for an improvement of 5 item levels.

01/23/2013 09:59 PMPosted by Sanctifiêd
if they left upgrading in the game, this ilvl jump wouldnt be necessary.

This is fairly insightful. The reason given for removing upgrading is that players might spend VP upgrading when that would be worse than just buying VP gear, and that's true if you have VP gear at 522 ilvl. If you leave upgrading in the game though, you can have a 5 ilvl BiS -> normal mode gap with normal mode/VP gear at only 514 ilvl, and it could sometimes make more sense to spend VP upgrading things than to spend it on vendor items.
Edited by Somewhat on 1/25/2013 1:57 PM PST
100 Worgen Mage
18395
01/24/2013 10:49 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
It seems too inflated to me but I can't see it killing off normal T14. T15 LFR won't get you into ToT normal all that quickly. You will need to run T14 if you want to run ToT before T16 is released.


The way I see it, T14 normal won't be dead anyway since it'll be cross-realmable and there will be an Elegon mount for raid organizers to reserve/ninja to give them incentive to make the group. Though no legendary weapon like in T13 and T12 hurts.
Edited by Digerati on 1/25/2013 2:05 PM PST
90 Goblin Priest
8835
01/25/2013 01:18 PMPosted by Darthelm
I'm kind of pissed about this as well. I was really looking forward to not having to run LFR for the ret of the expansion, but now, unless I manage to get several heroic drops a week from now until 5.2 drops I'm going to have to slog through ToT idiot mode for a few weeks.


Blizzard wants to "force" normal mode raiders into LFR, because without them,only idiots and noobs would be left, which would result in mass fail, even on stupid-easy mode.
Edited by Katastrophie on 1/25/2013 2:37 PM PST
100 Worgen Druid
15015
01/23/2013 05:31 PMPosted by Digerati
It's probably to prevent BiS gear from heroic T14 existing.


From dev interviews this seems to be why.


Why is that considered a problem?

We had Sinestra dropping a trinket that was better than anything in Firelands, and nobody complained.
90 Worgen Druid
4810


We had Sinestra dropping a trinket that was better than anything in Firelands, and nobody complained.


Nobody complained about that? Everybody I know that killed Sinestra while current that didn't get SoW complained about it lol
90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
Speculating that T16 LFR gear is going to be 592 is pretty absurd.
90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
The upgrade vendor will almost certainly not work in the fashion it currently does. I mean they wouldn't remove it if they just wanted to bring it back later. Maybe you won't be able to upgrade Heroic Thunderforged items. Maybe upgrades will be more effective on 5.3 items. Or something more exotic.
90 Worgen Warlock
HiJ
9275
01/25/2013 03:37 PMPosted by Sanctifiêd
after they put in item upgrades in 5.3, we're looking at 600 ilvl LFR gear in t16.
No? +2 heroic T14 -> +2 heroic hunderforged T15 is only 32 ilvls. Add another 32 and you get 581 for +2 heroic whateverforged T16, which would of course only be 573 when the boss drops it. Presumably the normal mode whateverforged gear would be 560 and the LFR gear would be substantially worse than the normal mode gear.
Edited by Somewhat on 1/25/2013 4:26 PM PST
Community Manager
Ion "Watcher" Hazzikostas saw this thread, and wanted share his thoughts on some of the issues you guys have raised:

We think it’s worth noting that many players began their Mists of Pandaria raiding experience with an average item level in the low 460s. Over the course of the past four months, Heroic raiders have seen their average item level climb by as much as 50, while normal mode raid groups that are just getting to Sha of Fear for the first time likely have an average item level that compares to what the cutting-edge guilds had when conquering Heroic Heart of Fear. Getting raid loot along the way has likely felt like a meaningful progression, and the overall damage and healing output of a raid group grows measurably from week to week with each piece of gear looted from a defeated boss. We like that, and we want Throne of Thunder to give players a similar sense of progression.

We could have taken an alternative, more conservative approach, where Throne of Thunder Raid Finder awarded ilvl 496 items and Normal awarded 509 items. A guild that has only done the current normal mode raids, but no Heroics, will then walk into Throne of Thunder with an average item level around 500 (lots of 496 items from Heart of Fear and Terrace, some of them upgraded to 504 with Valor). That doesn’t leave much room to grow – it means that players would only be a few percent stronger when facing Lei Shen at the end of the instance than they were facing Jin’rokh at the start. It also means that when raiders run into a roadblock halfway through the raid, there wouldn’t be much hope that a bit more gear from the next clear would have a significant impact.

Ultimately, we think that raid progression works better, and is more compelling, when there are meaningful increases in power from gear. The effort of downing a boss for the first time is properly rewarded with loot that is attractive to all members of the raid, and the steady increase in player power over the course of progressing through an instance allows us to scale the challenge accordingly. For example, we can now design Lei Shen around the expectation that the average raid group that reaches him will have an item level of nearly 520. The cutting-edge groups that tear through the zone in the first week or two will be comparatively undergeared when they reach him. Without any other changes on our end, item progression means that the same encounter can pose a stern test to a top guild when 5.2 comes out, while still being doable by the groups that only reach the same encounter a couple of months down the line. For example, Heroic Gara’jal was a brutal test of DPS for raiders who faced him last October, but now he feels like part of a smooth progression for groups that are just graduating from normal modes and beginning Heroics.

We’re confident that our planned item levels are not going to skew class balance or degenerate gameplay, and we’re monitoring the performance of all classes and specs in the new gear that will be available in 5.2 and going forward. Stat “inflation” was probably most out of control during the Wrath of the Lich King, but that was an issue with how powerful the gear was that was available as the expansion began perhaps more than any other factor. As a point of comparison, the item level 213 warrior set breastplate that was available in Naxxramas gave a level 80 player 2% critical strike chance; the item level 496 warrior set breastplate available in Heart of Fear gives 1.32% critical strike chance. We’ve learned from the past and carefully left ourselves a lot more room to grow this time around.
Edited by Daxxarri on 1/25/2013 5:19 PM PST
90 Dwarf Shaman
17655
Normal raiders now, would have normal Throne gear, not lfr, I don't see why you're comparing Normal Ilevel -> LFR Ilevel.

They have all that room to gear, especially if the Thunder Everyone Hates This Idea forged gear ends up going live.

people clear normal with a mix of LFR and normal, LFR raiders are using purely LFR, and Heroic Raiders use a mix of everything.

You're actively inflating item level, while there's also a Blue posts saying that inflation is out of control, the contradiction is rather annoying, as the smoke and mirrors are getting old, just flat out say you want heroic raiders carrying LFR the first month.
Edited by Entitlement on 1/25/2013 5:11 PM PST
3 Pandaren Warrior
0


You're actively inflating item level, while there's also a Blue posts saying that inflation is out of control, the contradiction is rather annoying, as the smoke and mirrors are getting old, just flat out say you want heroic raiders carrying LFR the first month.


This, really can't believe Blizz still force raiders into LFR to stay competitive, WE DON'T LIKE IT. Its not compelling gameplay for us, if LFR was truely meant as an ALTERNATIVE to raiding as you guys sell it, raiders have NO business in it.
Edited by Zergallyeah on 1/25/2013 5:16 PM PST
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