Tier 15-Massive ilvl Discrepancy

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90 Orc Warlock
13430
I keep hearing how "heroic level raiders are carrying the LFR runs"
What a load of garbage,maybe for the first week or so,but after that i don't buy it.


It's not just the Heroic ones, it's the Normal mode raiders too. Basically those who know the fights beforehand. They can detune to an extent, but no amount of detuning will compensate for not getting off Elegon's platform before it despawns. (On that point, I find it pathetic that you can easily survive Qiang's Annihilation.) The alternative is to just remove the platform despawn mechanic entirely. I don't think LFR needs to be, or even should be tuned to actually be called difficult. But I do think there needs to be some sort of challenge to it, it can't just be walk in, hit boss, collect loot. That's just not interesting at all.

Anyways, I don't doubt you usually come in the top 5 of an LFR group. Does your anecdotal evidence mean that a mass exodus of all Normal/Heroic raiders from LFR wouldn't be felt? By the same logic, I'm not saying me being top DPS in most of my LFR runs means that I was the sole reason the group did not wipe. But I think the Normal/Heroic guys are the key at the beginning of LFR getting launched. That is my opinion and I'm open to debate on it.

Tell me this, if they have to detune LFR so each fight can be done tank-and-spank style, do you find that compelling gameplay, especially as endgame content? Will the chance of getting gear to power up your character from that be enough to keep you subscribed until 5.4 comes out with the next tier?
90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
01/25/2013 10:22 PMPosted by Zakigga
It's not just the Heroic ones, it's the Normal mode raiders too. Basically those who know the fights beforehand. They can detune to an extent, but no amount of detuning will compensate for not getting off Elegon's platform before it despawns. (On that point, I find it pathetic that you can easily survive Qiang's Annihilation.) The alternative is to just remove the platform despawn mechanic entirely. I don't think LFR needs to be, or even should be tuned to actually be called difficult. But I do think there needs to be some sort of challenge to it, it can't just be walk in, hit boss, collect loot. That's just not interesting at all.


It's not interesting to die in a random because people fall off of Elegon's platform either, and there's the rub. Gearing paths can't be challenging because no one wants to do the equivalent of the 4 hour Blackrock Depths run for a chance at the boots they need anymore, and if they're retarded easy then no one is actually going to enjoy doing them.
100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
01/25/2013 10:16 PMPosted by Exterminatus
You're crazy if you think hardcore anything is running LFR anymore, or has been recently.


Hardcore raider ALTS
100 Dwarf Death Knight
20175
Look at DS normal. There was only a small number of bosses, it was out for a while and it was subject to progressive nerfs. Experienced raiders got bored with it too early, fair enough. But it gave people who normally don't get to finish normal modes while they are current a chance to do so.

Look at T14 normals in comparison. Lot more bosses, out for only a limited time, tuned quite hard with no progressive nerfs. Okay, I thought that they might be going to a BC model which would justify this. T14 normals would remain current even after T15 was released. But they made T15 LFR gear better than T14 normals. This makes T14 normals obsolete almost straight away, while only a relatively few people have had a chance to finish it.
Edited by Murdina on 1/25/2013 11:04 PM PST
100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
01/25/2013 10:52 PMPosted by Murdina
Look at DS normal. There was only a small number of bosses, it was out for a while and it was subject to progressive nerfs. Experienced raiders got bored with it too early, fair enough. But it gave people who normally don't get to finish normal modes while they are current a chance to do so.


It also was the largest loss of subscriptions in MMO history.
100 Blood Elf Paladin
19830
I like how Blizzard says they want to go about not completely invalidating the previous raid tier with new tiers this time around, and then go and release the biggest ilvl jump we have ever seen between tiers.
100 Human Monk
20825
I hate these gear jumps, makes me feel like all the prior work is now pointless.
Also reduces the need/interest for finishing older content. Most casual guilds I've been in will/would just focus on the newest stuff.

I don't know if we'll be required to finish ToT to enter the new raids but if we don't, I know my guild will just skip it all together for the new ones.

These gears jump may be an attempt to get everyone to see content, effectively it just lets people skip it and causes many more to miss it.
100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
So far, every statement made about future plans since the "you'll never seen a specific legendary like say Rogue Daggers" post, has been completely contradictory.

01/25/2013 10:58 PMPosted by Verjeh
These gears jump may be an attempt to get everyone to see content, effectively it just lets people skip it and causes many more to miss it.


This arguments invalid as long as LFR exists.
Edited by Postonforums on 1/25/2013 11:00 PM PST
100 Blood Elf Paladin
20055

We could have taken an alternative, more conservative approach, where Throne of Thunder Raid Finder awarded ilvl 496 items and Normal awarded 509 items. A guild that has only done the current normal mode raids, but no Heroics, will then walk into Throne of Thunder with an average item level around 500 (lots of 496 items from Heart of Fear and Terrace, some of them upgraded to 504 with Valor). That doesn’t leave much room to grow – it means that players would only be a few percent stronger when facing Lei Shen at the end of the instance than they were facing Jin’rokh at the start. It also means that when raiders run into a roadblock halfway through the raid, there wouldn’t be much hope that a bit more gear from the next clear would have a significant impact.


I don't understand how going from 496 to 509 isn't room to grow. Going from 496 to 522 is a massive increase in power. Moreover, I am curious why normal mode encounters are tuned around an item level that is at present unreachable by even heroic mode raiders. This much of a drastic item level increase blurs the lines between the 3 difficulties.

It's our expectation that Heroic raiders should have no interest in 5.2 Raid Finder gear. If you have item level 509+ gear from 5.0/5.1 Heroics, then the question is, why would you want item level 502 gear from the Raid Finder?


Downing a boss even relatively early doesn't mean you'll receive all gear that is a relevant upgrade. The only shields (strength and intellect) drop from MSV, so as a result, the LFR pieces will at best be sidegrades, and at worst (assuming shoddy RNG) be massive upgrades.


Similarly, some posters have stated that the huge discrepancy between entry-level and high-end gear will cause problems, but I think that the discrepancy is not as much of an issue as the lack an easy catch-up mechanism. Historically, as far back as 2.4, there has been a mechanism for quickly catching your character up to (nearly) a level of gear appropriate to the previous tier. In 5.3, for the first time in 5 years, that will not be the case. The huge difference in the effectiveness of the gear exacerbates the issue, rather than being an issue itself.


5.3 LFR is the catchup. In fact, its the largest catchup system implemented to date.
100 Human Paladin
aus
20645
01/25/2013 06:03 PMPosted by Moìra
So turn off recount. Or set it up so it only tracks your numbers. I've found you enjoy the game so much better if you don't try to micromanage everyone around you.


Recount just tells me we are wiping because 3x in a row we have had 3 afk healers and multiple dps on tsulong.
How does not knowing why we wiped actually help? Mind you the resto druid being feared around on their mount wad mildly amusing.
100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
01/25/2013 11:09 PMPosted by Mate
How does not knowing why we wiped actually help? Mind you the resto druid being feared around on their mount wad mildly amusing.


It's kind of funny, a druid running around on Lei Shi on their mount was the inspiration for me using a mount on heroic that lead to easy mode.
90 Human Paladin
13720
Well now that I know how high the ilvs will be for the gear that drops from the new raid finder, I've kinda lost the urge to really go any further with the gear that is currently available. At this point, I'm only using valor to raise the ilv of the gear i currently have. But that seems like a waste of time now. I might as well wait for the next patch, then start my grinding at that time.
Edited by Derìk on 1/25/2013 11:16 PM PST
100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
Well now that I know how high the ilvs will be for the gear that drops from the new raid finder, I've kinda lost the urge to really go any further with the gear that is currently available. At this point, I'm only using valor to raise the ilv of the gear i currently have. But that seems like a waste of time now. I might as well wait for the next patch, then start my grinding at that time.


tier 16 gear will be better than tier 15, you should probably wait

tier 17 gear will be better than tier 16, you should probably wait

tier 18 gear will be better than tier 17, you should probably wait

Hint; All gear gets replaced, besides precious' ribbon.
100 Orc Death Knight
10340
I like this change because it will make the older tier alot easier to pug and help guilds that got a late start raiding by giving them another rout to get gear and see content while its current
100 Draenei Priest
17580
01/25/2013 11:19 PMPosted by Postonforums
Hint; All gear gets replaced, besides precious' ribbon.


QFT

I understand the jump in ilvls, I really do. VP upgraded gear should be considered the "top" gear and the increase should be in relation to that, because you want to replace gear from new content. It makes sense. The problem I have is that VP upgrades exist and are really the reason for this drastic jump from non-upgraded t14 gear to non-upgraded t15 gear. Now I may be going to crazy town, but please bear with me.

Justice upgrade and Valor upgrades serve a purpose: to increase your ilvl. As Ashunera stated in his blog, this game is laden with ilvl requirements, most of them being a restriction to prevent under-skilled players from waltzing into content they're not equipped to handle (and to slow character progression to keep you from reaching "the end" too fast). When it comes to upgrading dungeon gear and LFR gear, I agree with that. It gives non-raiders a way to progress after they've reached their limit to obtaining gear for that week in hopes of achieving that next ilvl hurdle. What I don't like is having to upgrade normal and heroic gear with VP just because it's available. Having to choose between upgrading a piece that'll increase your dps or waiting to see if you'll replace that item before upgrading it is silly. It's not rewarding when your RNG coin decides to give you that staff you wanted right after you spent a week and a half's worth of dungeon grinding to upgrade the old one. When you're raiding in normals or heroics, you generally don't have the ilvl hurdles to deal with anymore. The gear that drops is significantly over any of the current restrictions, so now you're just upgrading for the sake of upgrading.

I really think the way JP and VP upgrades work should be reconsidered. It's a great way to get past those ilvl restrictions when you're just starting out, but a chore once you get past that. It's causing an unnecessary stat bloat for normal and heroic raiders, making certain current content absolutely trivial once you've upgraded the appropriate pieces (any heroic raiders that have gone back to heroic MSV can attest to this). Really, I think JP and VP upgrades should only apply to heroic dungeon gear and LFR gear. Eight ilvls on an LFR piece is still below normal, so there's still an upgrade available even after you've upgraded your piece and you've cleared your ilvl hurdle.

With normal and heroic gear being excluded from VP upgrades, you could stop a lot of the bloat happening down the road. Sure, there isn't much to do about T14's already upgraded gear, but you could nip it in the bud now and save the hassle later. Maybe even drop the ilvls down a good deal, making LFR drop 496 gear, Normal drop 517, and Heroic drop 530. That way non-upgraded heroic T14 can still be replaced, upgraded heroic T14 has the potential to be replaced (due to more-desirable stats), and gear won't be as incredibly inflated with stats.

It's a dangerous road we're heading down. Some specs have hard caps that will be easily attained by T15 and most definitely by T16, leaving their spec's value at the hands of loot itemization. It genuinely worries me.
90 Human Warlock
11015
01/25/2013 05:41 PMPosted by Dorrell


If I'm not missing something, I don't think he was. He's comparing 5.0/5.1 normal mode gear to 5.2 normal mode gear.



It's our expectation that Heroic raiders should have no interest in 5.2 Raid Finder gear. If you have item level 509+ gear from 5.0/5.1 Heroics, then the question is, why would you want item level 502 gear from the Raid Finder? Players wearing normal mode gear might find some slight upgrades in the Raid Finder in the first few weeks, but it's a safe bet that any gear that was upgraded with Valor Points will probably beat anything found in the Throne of Thunder Raid Finder.




Seriously? Like, really, seriously? Yeah, because every piece of BiS gear drops for everyone in every heroic raid, every time. That's how this game works ..... right.....

Dev's need to spend more time thinking about this stuff b4.

The only reason for something like this to happen for real, and the only excuse blue posters should be making for it is the real reason. They are banking on non-raiders being the bulk of subs, and are hoping that massively bumping up the ilvl so that non-raiders who only do lfr will be happy enough to outweigh the smaller population of raiders who think the ilvl discrepancy is way too much.

This many people not being happy about it now, just thinking about it. And it's not even live yet .....
90 Human Warlock
11015
01/25/2013 11:19 PMPosted by Postonforums
Well now that I know how high the ilvs will be for the gear that drops from the new raid finder, I've kinda lost the urge to really go any further with the gear that is currently available. At this point, I'm only using valor to raise the ilv of the gear i currently have. But that seems like a waste of time now. I might as well wait for the next patch, then start my grinding at that time.


tier 16 gear will be better than tier 15, you should probably wait

tier 17 gear will be better than tier 16, you should probably wait

tier 18 gear will be better than tier 17, you should probably wait

Hint; All gear gets replaced, besides precious' ribbon.


Yeah but all gear doesn't get replaced in a scramble to replace all pieces as soon as possible, especially with the promise of higher drop rates in 5.2.

Every piece of gear people have worked to get, drops they've been excited to have .... well most people I know who know about the change already feel like they wasted their time, a lot of people stopped playing until 5.2 drops, hopefully a decent % of them will come back, but that hasn't been the trend so far in MoP. I came pretty close to getting BiS in normal raid gear, and right now I couldn't care less if the other pieces dropped, something I'll use for a few weeks at most.

What percentage of the WoW pop completed these raids on heroic anyway? That's the percentage of people who won't be throwing away all of their gear with lfr drops as soon as they can.
100 Tauren Shaman
13310
Hi. I'm a "LFR Hero". I wish I had the time to push progression 10s or 25s, but events in life have transpired which make that impossible. Therefore, I'm thankful for LFR as it has kept my interest in this game.

HOWEVER, once upon a time, I used to be a progression raider. Back when 20/40 man raids were the standard and, briefly, during the 10/25 shift. I can't say I've done heroic modes but I have supported long time friends who did so I'm not entirely unaware of the difficulty or the dedication required.

With all that said as a preface, I want to agree with those unhappy with this change. I disagree with it because, firstly, gear inflation is, as many others have stated, out of control. As someone who runs LFR, I was fully expecting LFR ToT to be no higher than 496. 496 makes perfect sense as it's slightly above all existing LFR T14 items but wouldn't quite be close enough to the normal T15 ilevel range. Edit: In essence, this would make it similar to the VP/JP shift of old, where LFR would be equal to the gear level of the preceding patch (sorry if that's difficult to follow, I know what I want to say in my mind but it's 4am).

Edit 2: I'm sure someone will point out that I could, in theory, take all of 483 tier 14 and upgrade it with VP prior to 5.2, but 1) that is a tall order given RNG and the sheer number of VP required, and 2) even at 2 upgrades, a 483 item only becomes a 491 item. That would mean everything in a 496 LFR ToT would still be better than fully upgraded T14 stuff. This only serves to show the absolute failure of the entire upgrading system. By adding upgrading, they're now having to deal with the possibility of people double upgrading 496 VP gear and are planning LFR ToT around it, to the detriment of gear budgeting as a whole.

Consider, also, that there's an impending reduction of 5.0 and 5.1 VP gear items with 5.2 (50% and 25% respectively) and current PTR discussion talks about putting requiring only 480 for LFR ToT. With the price reduction, it will be fairly easy for people to get to ilvl 480 from all the 489 and 496 items available and leapfrog all of the existing LFR content to go straight into ToT for 502 gear. While I don't believe the sky is "falling", I do believe that within a few short months after 5.2, no one will touch MSV, and the queue times for HoF and ToES will be outrageously high.

Secondly, gear incentives are a terrible way of trying to address the 25 man decline. Using my own experience, had Blizzard attempted to beef up 40 man raiding in classic by adding even more loot that was considered "better", all it would have done is increased loot drama (which was already insane), and made the "have-nots" even more bitter of the lucky few "haves". It doesn't address population, logistical, or time issues, it fails to address balance issues... It's just dangling more shiny objects on a string. Since you're including Thunderforged items in 10 mans, adding this new classification solves nothing. 10-mans will still be the go-to mode for most.
Edited by Nydidolyn on 1/26/2013 1:39 AM PST
100 Worgen Druid
16335
LFR is the fastest way to get T14 set bonuses, in some cases of which are a great boost in performance.

Even if your guild is clearing the required bosses, you may not actually get the item for months.

It's a simple fact that for the first few weeks of the expansion, any raider at any level would be failing to make their maximum possible contribution to the raid if they didn't also try for LFR gear.

If you're a raid leader/organizer of a cutting edge guild, and you've got two candidates for a raid spot, both equally skilled but one has LFR gear and one has blues, which one are you taking?
90 Worgen Warlock
HiJ
9275
01/25/2013 10:59 PMPosted by Isiildur
5.3 LFR is the catchup. In fact, its the largest catchup system implemented to date.
In 2.4 you could get your alt almost completely decked out in 141 gear in a week or two. I don't expect any fresh 90s to get to 500 ilvl in less than two months.
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