Scrap seals, bring back WotLK judgments?

90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
The seal system is changed every expansion because it's inherently sucky. Seals can't be off the GCD because we'd macro 'em into our rotation, but on the GCD they're too restrictive.

Holy sits in Insight all day e'ery day. Truth was neutered for Prot and afaik Insight is now generally better. Righteousness isn't very interesting and on top of that it currently sucks. Ret sits in Truth in PvE, and in PvP uses either Truth or Justice based on talent spec or team comp (sort of a choice, but usually made prior to combat and it's a little sh!tty to be one of only damage-dealers to sacrifice DPS for a snare).

What if seal damage and Censure were baseline passive effects? Censure coefficients would be different for each spec (like with Arms and Fury). Ret's mastery, which is redundant with seals, could be changed to increase seal and Censure damage. The result is the paladin class would be more streamlined, and as a bonus there'd be no more annoying split second delay on Ret mastery damage.

In place of seals, bring back WotLK judgments -- not the actual effects, but the system. Judgment is a good spell for utility because it's part of the rotation, but at the bottom of the rotation. WotLK judgments had the smoothness of off-the-GCD seals without being mindless and automated (macro'd). In other words, this solution is the best of both worlds.

What do you guys think? If the seal system is unfortunately here for the long haul, then at least specs shouldn't have spells they don't need such as Holy with Truth and Righteousness, Ret with Insight, etc. I don't care if you love using one of these .01% of the time, or think it's more useful than it actually is. WoW is too old and there are too many spells in this game for there to be room for bloat.
Edited by Hafleur on 1/25/2013 7:02 AM PST
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90 Human Warlock
6920
What did those poor baby seals do to you? :(
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88 Blood Elf Warlock
12095
I have always thought Censure should be something that ticks relative to damage dealt and be modified by Mastery. I can totally see this happening with your suggestion. I had just made a post about how I am dissatisfied with the multiple sources of damage per button press system. If Censure and Hand of Light damage were rolled into 1 source, some of the damage could be pushed back to the actual ability. I know I get 30% (or whatever) extra damage from my 60-70k TV making it hit harder than it looks. The extra damage is even holy which is nice. But I would still like to see a hard hit. Seeing 2-3 numbers pop up at once doesn't feel right for the kit. Paladins are not a fast hitting, dual wielding, agility class.

Yes I am asking for big numbers.

I would LOVE a real time decision for Judgement like utility vs damage to come back.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
5620
Holy power made me quit pally.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
But I would still like to see a hard hit. Seeing 2-3 numbers pop up at once doesn't feel right for the kit. Paladins are not a fast hitting, dual wielding, agility class.

I agree each attack is spread throughout too many smaller attacks. Crusader Strike should read "An instant strike that causes 125% weapon damage as Physical plus 791, and an additional 12% of the Physical damage done as Holy damage. Grants a charge of Holy Power." Kinda like Scourge Strike (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=55090).

Censure should be its own passive effect in the spellbook. It could continue to work how it does now, but I like your suggestion to replace it with Righteous Vengeance (more interesting, more visceral). All of our attacks would do an extra X% holy damage over 8 sec, including AoE to replace Seal of Righteousness. Holy wouldn't have this effect.

Then our mastery would increase both the "additional 12% holy damage" and the "extra X% damage over 8 sec." There, we've streamlined seal damage, Censure, and mastery damage. How can someone not see this as an improvement? Add it in 6.0!

01/24/2013 10:00 AMPosted by Faien
I would LOVE a real time decision for Judgement like utility vs damage to come back.

I'd prefer utility vs. utility. Seal of Truth vs. Seal of Justice is an example of utility vs. damage -- when a raid requires snares, you'll never see a Ret switch to Justice because so many other classes can snare without losing damage. Think about how the rogue poison system was changed in MoP.

By the way, I'm not sure Holy Paladins need more than one Judgment. It'd be a little excessive considering they don't use Judgment that often, and they don't really need a replacement for the seal system because they never switch out of Insight. Holy not having access to this could give Ret that much needed unique utility to help set it apart in PvP.
Edited by Hafleur on 1/25/2013 7:39 AM PST
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88 Blood Elf Warlock
12095
What other utility would you see for judgement though? Would you separate physical vulnerability and a snare? Self healing/mana return as an option?

My though on the subject is that the key thing Ret is really missing in PvP is a gap closer. Long Arm + Burden of Guilt can almost (not really) qualify but I have a problem with making our gimped charge equivalent something that is part of the normal rotation. This can apply to any utility option really.

If there were not a higher damage but no utility choice then something like a self heal would always be used. One option would be viewed as the best for PvE and one for PvP and then it would never change. This minimizes the interaction and I don't think would improve from the current design of pick 1 seal and forget about it.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
What other utility would you see for judgement though? Would you separate physical vulnerability and a snare? Self healing/mana return as an option?

Physical vuln wouldn't be an interesting choice. I haven't given it much thought, but there's a ton of cool utility to choose from. Maybe steal something from another class such as a healing debuff or a cast-speed slow. Burden of Guilt would definitely be included. A heal might not be a good idea because Ret already has enough separate healing spells and, like you said, it could easily become the go-to choice.

The idea in regard to raiding isn't for there to be this constant choice in every boss encounter. Our rotation feels great as it is. Rather, you'd cast different judgments when utility is needed. Adds that need to be snared? Hey, a Ret can do that as well as anyone else without losing DPS or changing talents, simply by using Judgment of Guilt.

I'm not sure how often healing debuffs and cast-speed slows have been useful in raids past Vanilla, but I'm sure we can think of some decent utility which wouldn't go to waste. Tell me if you come up with anything and I'll do the same.

01/25/2013 09:53 AMPosted by Faien
My though on the subject is that the key thing Ret is really missing in PvP is a gap closer.

I actually think Ret PvP mobility is pretty damn balanced for once.

Must...stop...editing posts!
Edited by Hafleur on 1/25/2013 2:05 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16170
01/24/2013 08:06 AMPosted by Meyvare
What did those poor baby seals do to you? :(
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88 Blood Elf Warlock
12095
I actually think Ret's PvP mobility is pretty damn balanced for once.


Sure if you talent for it.

But lets say you don't have BoG and LotL. Is it still balanced?

Go play any melee except the poor shaman. Can you still say it then? I certainly cannot get to and stay on a target using my paladin like I can on my Warrior, DK, Monk or Rogue (don't have a druid). Even with BoG and LotL.

Ranged ask for gap openers based on these classes and for the most part they get them. (which they should) But when a hunter can snare, stun, disorient, root, leap away and silence... how do you deal with that as a paladin? (yes hunter is my personal worst match up)

I think there is a difference between general mobility, which Paladins have in spades, and the ability to close a gap. I consider a gap closer a must have for all melee. Blizzard even defends the non DR charge stun for Warriors saying if it wasn't there the warrior would never get a hit in. That is because the first step away is all someone needs to get out of melee range. If the half second for a charge animation is too long then potentially a whole GCD surely is before I can cast emancipate or HoF.

Sorry this was totally off topic.
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90 Human Paladin
13840
i remember when i would change seals as ret

this was back in ICC. seal of command hit like a truck for aoe packs. now, you change seals once in a blue moon to slow down a druid running a flag, in a bg.

I have no reason to swap away from seal of truth, even the aoe seal (righteousness) is inferior to the single target seal. unless you get like 20 targets, then its SLIGHTLY better.


Or when Seal of Light was useful for situations like flag carrying. Divine Storm with that up and you'd get, like, 8k health or something ridiculous.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
5620
Bring back seals? How about bring back Wrath pally play style in general
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90 Human Paladin
15575
01/25/2013 07:13 PMPosted by Turmoyl
Bring back seals? How about bring back Wrath pally play style in general


The Wrath judgements were fun, but the wrath playstyle was plain and boring. Revamping how our seals worked halfway through the expac was also a major mistake once they realized seal of blood/martyr would never be balanced. Seal of command was fun, ill give you that as well. But I do not miss the wrath playstyle.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
But lets say you don't have BoG and LotL. Is it still balanced?

Go play any melee except the poor shaman. Can you still say it then? I certainly cannot get to and stay on a target using my paladin like I can on my Warrior, DK, Monk or Rogue (don't have a druid). Even with BoG and LotL.

Well, you can't discount Long Arm because Rets are expected to have it. That's like saying (next patch) to discuss rogue mobility without taking into account Cloak and Dagger/Shadowstep/Burst of Speed.

Warrior mobility comes in bursts while Ret mobility is constant. Honestly this is the last thing I'm worried about in regard to our competitiveness in PvP. Speed of Light should be buffed for Ret, but that's more about fun/options.

01/25/2013 07:44 PMPosted by Xonk
The Wrath judgements were fun, but the wrath playstyle was plain and boring. Revamping how our seals worked halfway through the expac was also a major mistake once they realized seal of blood/martyr would never be balanced. Seal of command was fun, ill give you that as well. But I do not miss the wrath playstyle.

I think our WotLK utility kit was more fun than our current one, but I doubt we'll get that back. MoP holy power is a lot more fun than first come, first serve.
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90 Draenei Paladin
14055
I'd much rather see the Seal system changed to something utility based and simply roll Censure into the baseline spec as a passive ability. And yeah, Censure rolled into HoL sounds like an awesome idea to me, I'd like to see the actual numbers when I hit something instead of a series of modifiers.

Right now there are very few situations where I actually change out of Truth, and Justice doesn't feel right in that I have to sacrifice damage to snare which doesn't really seem fair particularly with the related changes to Rogue poisons.

My question would be what kind of choices could we have? Lets say we bring 3 different types of Judgements. One would probably be for snaring (aka Justice) allowing the removal of the BoG talent from the tree since it would no longer be necessary. What about the others though?

Righteousness is pretty useless to Retribution aside from very specific circumstances and is usually a DPS loss over Truth. I'd remove the AoE component from Righteousness and simply improve the damage from abilities like Divine Storm and remove the positional/target requirements for HotR, have it do a ground-slam effect like Thunderclap and only allow it to generate Holy Power when it hits a target.
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