Talent tree system or paint by numbers?

81 Gnome Death Knight
10100
01/25/2013 10:34 AMPosted by Erras
So you recognize that most of the talents are completely worthless to those of us that do not PvP?


PvP talents and abilities are occasionally useful for PvE. Just off the top of my head does anyone remember farming a PvP Trinket for the first boss of the Hyjal raid?
90 Night Elf Priest
4360

Except most of those levels were meaningless, even though you got a talent point.


One of my earliest memories of WoW was leveling my mage during vanilla and playing with my talent spec.

I remember putting points into Arcane so I could get instant Arcane Explosion (4/5 points as with GCD you didn't need the last point) and looking forward to getting a few more levels so I could do a AP+PoM/Pyro spec.

Once I hit lvl 40 I was finally able to switch it up and do a Elementalist build (fire down to blast wave and then points in frost) which was so much fun but was definitely not a standard build but still viable for pvp and pve.

Trying out AP/Frost builds in MC or deep fire builds to roll ignites or even support mages to help the main fire mage roll ignites.

Those were the choices you had back in the day.

now you choose between 3 specs, the specs are standard and the talents are superficial.
Edited by Belkiratwo on 1/25/2013 10:39 AM PST
Community Manager
01/25/2013 10:26 AMPosted by Erras
I'm not sure you've actually looked at the new talents.


With all due respect... have you? As previously stated, only two of my six choices have any meaningful effect at all on my character. And those two choices don't really alter my experience much. Its mostly the choice between a cooldown and a passive ability to improve my DPS. It certainly isn't much of a fun or exciting choice now, is it? Well, I guess that's subjective, but its certainly not fun or exciting for me.

And it is even worse on leveling characters. I honestly am not sure I even have my talents set on some of my lower levels. They are so trivial and unimportant, I completely forget about them. Gone are the days that reaching a new level meant something. :(


Ah, so if it doesn't flat increase your DPS it's worthless? I think you may want to talk to some other druids on what is useful or not in various situations. Not sure I can argue against that kind of mentality except to say what you're looking for are item stats. If all you want is flat DPS increases, keep gearing up! The rest of us will enjoy employing various talents, and respeccing, to great effect.
90 Undead Priest
11595
ENTIRE game ... great for pvp

:)


So you recognize that most of the talents are completely worthless to those of us that do not PvP?

Except most of those levels were meaningless, even though you got a talent point.


Really? A few rare exceptions excluded, every single talent point made your character better. More importantly, it offered a clear road of progression with meaningful rewards every few tiers. I don't call that meaningless at all. :)

Compare that to what we have now, where almost every single talent has no real bearing on game play for most things.


But did you get excited about that extra 2 percent damage to moonfire? Maybe for a few seconds, but it wasn't that talent point that enabled you to keep going and further your toon, it was the level itself. Sure, every 10-15 levels you got a talent that was really a game changer, but what does that sound like?
Community Manager




:)


lol I want a blue button

I think he meant that he wishes all skill tiers were relevant to both PVE and PVP and not only PVP or PVE


Not all trees are going to be amazing for every situation. We're happy to hear ideas on how we can change a given tree to keep it unique and make it useful in raiding, questing, and pvp. :)
90 Human Priest
0
01/25/2013 10:39 AMPosted by Bashiok


With all due respect... have you? As previously stated, only two of my six choices have any meaningful effect at all on my character. And those two choices don't really alter my experience much. Its mostly the choice between a cooldown and a passive ability to improve my DPS. It certainly isn't much of a fun or exciting choice now, is it? Well, I guess that's subjective, but its certainly not fun or exciting for me.

And it is even worse on leveling characters. I honestly am not sure I even have my talents set on some of my lower levels. They are so trivial and unimportant, I completely forget about them. Gone are the days that reaching a new level meant something. :(


Ah, so if it doesn't flat increase your DPS it's worthless? I think you may want to talk to some other druids on what is useful or not in various situations. Not sure I can argue against that kind of mentality except to say what you're looking for are item stats. If all you want is flat DPS increases, keep gearing up! The rest of us will enjoy employing various talents, and respeccing, to great effect.


the only time ive used the T1 priest talent is on the last boss in msv. everything else in raiding is immune to thoes talents. so....
90 Pandaren Monk
12470
Don't like the talent system? Wait an expansion, it'll change.
Community Manager
01/25/2013 10:39 AMPosted by Staan
But did you get excited about that extra 2 percent damage to moonfire? Maybe for a few seconds, but it wasn't that talent point that enabled you to keep going and further your toon, it was the level itself. Sure, every 10-15 levels you got a talent that was really a game changer, but what does that sound like?


To be fair the old trees were successful in making themselves seem meaningful and fun, but yes most of the time they were either meaningless or required. Speccing down a tree by following a guide to maximize DPS wasn't a choice, and if you didn't follow a guide you were spending your talents wrong. Period. With the new trees you have six trees, and on each tree all three options are a variations on a theme, and the choice generally comes down to personal preference or style. That's at least an option that means something to you, to your character, and your identity in the game.
100 Undead Warlock
14840

They gave us "variety" by making the choices irrelevant to the game. You have freedom to choose, because your choice is meaningless. How is this an improvement?


Oh, the choices are meaningless ? Must be why I've used different talents for different fights, different talents for different goes at the same fight; and why I have to buy a new 20-stack of Tomes of the Clear mind a couple times a month.
100 Night Elf Rogue
9890
As a rogue, my choices have been reduced to choosing either Leeching Poison or Elusiveness. All other talents are either set in stone or worthless.

At least in Cata I could choose to take way less damage for a small damage loss.
90 Undead Priest
11595


lol I want a blue button

I think he meant that he wishes all skill tiers were relevant to both PVE and PVP and not only PVP or PVE


Not all trees are going to be amazing for every situation. We're happy to hear ideas on how we can change a given tree to keep it unique and make it useful in raiding, questing, and pvp. :)


I would be happy if tiers like the priest tier 1 could be used to make trash easier. I can understand not having them on boss fights for the fear of cheesing stuff with CC, but why does most trash have to be immune to roots and fears? Let choices on those tiers help with getting to bosses faster maybe?
90 Draenei Paladin
8040
I'm in the camp that for the leveling experience I greatly preferred the old system, as I now sit with high level alts in all classes (except monk and rogue) it's not an issue for me except that I can't stand leveling those two because it feels like nothing happens when you ding now. I can remember the ding followed by grats followed by "where are you putting that talent point?" and it was a fun loop, even if only for a .01% haste increase to me.

The new system is better for high level players but it does make spec distinction feel less personal. It also doesn't help that a lot of the skills that did used to distinguish specs are now part of talent trees available to all specs :(

The pvp argument is strong too, it often feels like when you read any class you're like "oh thats the pvp talent in this set".
90 Human Priest
16220
01/25/2013 10:42 AMPosted by Bigscreen
the only time ive used the T1 priest talent is on the last boss in msv. everything else in raiding is immune to thoes talents. so....

One tier in the priest talent tree isn't useful exclusively for raiding? Say it ain't so!
90 Draenei Shaman
11540
You know why the new system is vastly superior to the old system?
In between fights, if I'm not in combat, I can completely change all my talent point selections to match the situation I'm in or need to perform.

That level of versatility is awesome.


This. I change mine in between each fight now it seems. Before, I put my setup how I liked it, and never changed it again.
90 Undead Hunter
10595
The new system is OK. I use the talents that I do because over the last few months they are the ones I enjoyed the most. There are some that I barely if ever use. But I really don't get all that excited about them. The only thing that differentiates what my hunter is from the next guy is my gear and whether or not I am using glaive toss. It reminds me alot of Diablo III, and that was one big reason why I uninstalled that game after one playthrough.

Blizz has to balance their game. They tried to make that easier by streamlining all the classes into being fundamentally the same. The downside is there isn't much the player can choose from other than whatever transmog they wish to sport this week.

That being said, leveling for me is where this new tree totally fell off the wall. I hate it. The only thing that is even remotely exciting about leveling is when you get a key ability on autoload by hiting the corresponding level, or that odd tier in the tree where you get a choice of an ability that you routinely use. It makes leveling to me a mind numbing chore.

Overall its ok, but to me at least nothing great.
100 Dwarf Paladin
6105
That progress is still there, it's just become "hidden".

I think it's a psychological flaw, but not a system flaw... people are used to the exposure of picking talents, rather than just being given them.

The system is far superior as it gets rid of the "garbage" talents that were there (I don't mean cookie cutter talents, I mean talents that surved no purpose other than a steping stone to that specific 0/1 talent that gave a new skill).. we still get the "garbage" talents, we just don't see it or actively participate in the aquisition of them.

It's that where I think people are having the problems. Kind of like the whole LFR/Raid loot issues.. it's not the new system so much as it is not experiencing it as we are used to.
90 Human Death Knight
12455
01/25/2013 10:30 AMPosted by Staan
You are doing shadow priest wrong then (yes I can see your main).

There is a certain irony to this statement. While I don't think you mean it this way, it reinforces the impossibility of having talent trees at all for a mini-max obsessed community: One either does it "right" or one does it "wrong" and the only purpose they serve is to create traps for those who don't faithfully keep current on external theorycrafting of others.

In terms of "doing shadow priest wrong," the two talent "flips" you could even consider making both reflect a level of situational efficiency that is probably irrelevant to anything but cutting edge progression. Should you use Mindbender on Feng? It probably sims better in a pure theorycrafting world. I'm not sure it is meaningful for most people (and, to the extent it is, it goes right back to the notion of "its a trap because you didn't read How To Priest!"
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