Talent tree system or paint by numbers?

90 Pandaren Warrior
13865
I love new talent system. Both at max level and while leveling my alts, I feel like when I choose a talent it's because I WANT to have that ability, not because I NEED it. The old trees were filled with mandatory and passive bonuses that a lot of time I hardly even noticed I had even spent a talent point at all or constantly questioning why I was having to spend points on it.

+1% Crit chance to X ability? +3% more damage to abilities Y and Z? Woo, boring passives that only min/max players will ever pay attention too.

And the mandatory talents were obnoxious. Why should I have to spend a talent point on something that my spec requires to even perform it's role? What Arms Warrior would ever NOT take Taste for Blood? What Affliction Warlock would ever NOT take Everlasting Afflictions?

These aren't talents you choose 'cuz you want it. These are "You must take this or you can't perform your role at an decent level" talents. I'll admit that there needs to be some fine tuning to the talents themselves, but the system at least allows for us to choose the talents we LIKE and still be able to perform our selected role in the group without being a hinderance.
1 Tauren Shaman
0
I've never felt that this game had enough variation when it came to talents. The old system did result in everyone doing the same thing, however the new system isn't really any different and there's less to choose from. The odd time you will see someone with a different talent because they simply like it better/find it more convenient which is great but I'd just like to see a talent system with a ton of options that result in specific advantages rather than "cookie cutter" for DPS or heal or tank. After what 8 years now? I don't think that will happen because Blizzard seems to enjoy simplifying and for lack of a better word "dumbing down" this game at every turn. But that's how their business works right? The kids don't like complicated and they'll stop spending money if it gets too complicated....not a dig, just the truth after 8 years.
90 Pandaren Shaman
4860
I miss learning things, like going to your trainer. Not only does my character learn the ability but I know I have the ability. when I first started to play again I gained moves I did not know I had because I leveled while healing massive damage and I could not read all the messages. I get confused if i am learning a spell or having access to a new dungeon from the fast pace. I do not care if everything was 1 silver it would be nice going ohhh now I know that move.

The old talent tree had too much of what is best but ti had more customizing then now. I remember back with the old tree Death knights could make holy frost or blood to work for tanking. I think death knights miss doing that.

The old way also had um.. not sure how to explain it. It is like Wow at 50 I get my ultra move.

As shaman now (a class I did not play 2 years ago) when someone showed me healing rain I was like wow can't want to get that because it is pretty :)

A way to have more variation would be nice but I think it can't happen because people are always trying to find "best"
Edited by Momoka on 1/25/2013 11:55 AM PST
90 Troll Shaman
15505
Just recently back to WoW but played for about a year after closed beta.

I was wondering how people felt about the switch to the new system off of the old Talent Point system? I wasn't around for the original discussion but I guess you can tell by the title how I feel about it.

Post away...


I like it better than the old system. The old system was both confusing and arbitrary, and created constant headaches due to unintended consequences (I've been around long enough to recall "Reckoning bombs" -- and getting hit by one in Warsong Gulch for 33k).

However, I don't think they're where they should be, even when one considers 5.2, and the idea of an "always changing" game. Two reasons.

First, every class has at least one tier with all-trivial talents. They change nothing about your play style. They're probably not even on your toolbar. Might as well nuke those and start over. 2nd tier Monk talents, here's to you: "eh."

Second, some talents add needless complexity for very little reward. The best example I can think of is Primal Elementalist -- I saw that, and thought "wait, so I'd have to master a new pet bar for a pet with 1/5 uptime...? No thank you." Talents that do things like add entire action bars are just tedium. (Granted, a few players love added tedium; I don't)

Once those are smoothed out ... and I'd put a few gold on a major "talent pass" in 5.3 ... they'll feel a lot better. I'd love to see more talents per tree, myself -- 4 or 5, perhaps -- but these at least prevent having to spreadsheet model a tree with 500 possibilities.
81 Gnome Death Knight
10100
01/25/2013 11:52 AMPosted by Momoka
I get confused if i am learning a spell or having access to a new dungeon from the fast pace. I do not care if everything was 1 silver it would be nice going ohhh now I know that move.


There's of course a balance here.

Running to the trainer to learn a brand new ability is fun. Even better would be a mini quest for more important ones teaching you how to use it but ... that would be quite a bit of work for 34 specs.

Running to the trainer to learn Rank 7 Chain Heal can be outright depressing.

01/25/2013 11:52 AMPosted by Momoka
As shaman now (a class I did not play 2 years ago) when someone showed me healing rain I was like wow can't want to get that because it is pretty :)


The first time I used Healing Rain everyone ran away from it. :-P
90 Undead Death Knight
7345
I'm totally ok with the bliz changes making no choice glyphs baseline. They were always chosen.

I just wish we had 4-5 choices per tier or a couple more tiers. It just "feels" like a lot less choice now, regardless of whether it is true.

More choices make for more interesting gameplay for me. Even the illusion of choice.

Very similar to D3. If you are going to take away most of the illusion of choice please add a lot more new choices to keep the feeling of variety in the game.

I understand that every new ability creates balance issues but taking away large portions of a tree leaves the tree looking charlie brown sparse. I want nice full branches of fun! Even if it is an illusion!
90 Blood Elf Paladin
11680
01/25/2013 11:58 AMPosted by Kahzregi
I get confused if i am learning a spell or having access to a new dungeon from the fast pace. I do not care if everything was 1 silver it would be nice going ohhh now I know that move.


There's of course a balance here.

Running to the trainer to learn a brand new ability is fun. Even better would be a mini quest for more important ones teaching you how to use it but ... that would be quite a bit of work for 34 specs.

Running to the trainer to learn Rank 7 Chain Heal can be outright depressing.

As shaman now (a class I did not play 2 years ago) when someone showed me healing rain I was like wow can't want to get that because it is pretty :)


The first time I used Healing Rain everyone ran away from it. :-P


People still run away from my Light's Hammer.
90 Human Monk
10960
I love the new talent tree. Before you had to go back to the trainer & re-do your entire tree if you wanted to change something. Now, I can change talents on the fly for different encounters.

I saw some people trying to claim they were meaningless, but for the most part they arent.


Being able to change talents on the fly has no correlation with the design of the talent tree. Being able to change talents is functionality allowed to be done ON the talent tree.

This actually caused a huge uproar going all the way back to pre-dual spec days because it made people feel less connection to their choices if they could easily switch around their talents. Talents were meant to be a big deal.
90 Human Warlock
7875
The only thing the new talent system fails is: some talents tiers hardly have 3 powerful options.
Sometimes this is frustrating because it takes too much time for blizzard get what's wrong and fix a tier.

Gonna give 2 examples:
a) Druid lvl 60 talent tier: Incarnation is so awesome and powerful CD in many ways that a flat passive or 3 confusing trees in a 1min CD can't compete with it.
b) Warlock lvl 60 talent tier: (actual PTR one) The blizzard philosophy of a blood caster for warlocks is so over the top that they make a "defensive tier" (GC said it already) completely useless because of the absurd health cost on them, killing the whole purpose of it.

Something that i like to see more on talents are talents that affect my gameplay/rotation like Mage Bombs; From darkness, comes light; Divine insight; Rune regeneration tier; Thrill of the hunt; Divine Purpose; Echo of Elements, and so on.
90 Worgen Rogue
8790
As a PvE focused rogue, the new talent trees are quite crappy. We have one meaningful choice (Leeching Poison or Elusiveness), all other tiers are either mandatory or useless.
I love the new Talent System mostly because it feels very much like the D&D 3.5 / Pathfinder "feat" system.

That was a system that worked wonderfully, and I am glad Blizzard borrowed from it.
Edited by Xangxu on 1/25/2013 12:13 PM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
11225
01/25/2013 11:59 AMPosted by Kugkug
I just wish we had 4-5 choices per tier or a couple more tiers. It just "feels" like a lot less choice now, regardless of whether it is true.


I like this comment. While the new system feels a lot less clunky, and more personal, we could use another choice or two per tier. I even like the idea of utility per situation. I carry a stack of tomes with me to make those adjustments in raid and when I'm doing dailies.
90 Undead Priest
16470
01/25/2013 09:00 AMPosted by Rubedo
In between fights, if I'm not in combat, I can completely change all my talent point selections to match the situation I'm in or need to perform.


All you have to do is reload your UI 6 times to have the game allow you to change your talents.
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
Under the old system, building a Frost Mage left me with about three talent points to spend where I pleased. These talent points allowed me to make choices like:

Would I like to have +2% haste and +3% crit, or +3% haste and plus 2% crit?
Would I like to increase my snares by 10% and heal my Water Elemental for 5% of the damage I deal, or would I like to increase my snares by 7% and heal my Water Elemental for 10% of the damage I deal?

Woo. Compelling stuff.

Under the new system, I have six talent points to spend where I please. Two of them (L75 and L90) have a major impact on my DPS rotation. The rest all function very differently from each other. Any one choice I can make under the new system has a more dramatic impact on my playstyle than all three choices I could make under the old system put together.

The new system provides more choices, and more meaningful choices, than the old.

The one thing I dislike about the new system is that some of the talents are designed to be too situational. I use talents to customize and define my character; I don't want talents to be a "figure out which talent to use in which situation" metagame. But that's not a new downside, really.
90 Worgen Warlock
6870


Not all trees are going to be amazing for every situation. We're happy to hear ideas on how we can change a given tree to keep it unique and make it useful in raiding, questing, and pvp. :)


Copied and edited this from my PTR post. My $0.02 on Warlock talents:

Tier 1:

Dark Regeneration--seems fine

Soul Leech--the new absorb shield seems nice, just gotta get back used to healing combat damage

Harvest Life--seems fine

Tier 2: This tier has so much promise. I think the current medium/long cd cc theme hurts the tier, and should be changed to a short/medium or medium cd cc theme to give locks quicker access to much needed peel options.

Howl of Terror--Why not change this to a 30 sec cd that causes ALL targets in 10 yards (or 8 if 10's too much) to run from you (not run around, but run from you, similiar to the knockback effect pathing) in TERROR (like it used to be. Why was it changed to a fear effect anyway?) for preferably 4 sec? Possible breaking from damage effect should stay, and the melee attack cd reduction as well (might not need that at 30 sed cd).

Mortal Coil--Why put this single target cc in a tier with 2 other aoe cc's? Why not change it to cause the target (keep it as a targeted cc, 30 yd range, with the missile effect too unless that became an issue) and all enemies within 8 yds of the target to wander in horror (like the disorient/polymorph effect) for 3 sec, and heal the caster for 10% max health?

Shadowfury--Only thing I don't like is the new 30 sec cd. It feels a bit too long. Can it come down to 25 sec? And if not can the stun be increase to around 4 sec, or the area to 10 yrds?

Tier 3:

Soul Link--Actually works pretty nice in the right situations. I think the 50% pet health reduction may be too steep though and should be looked at.

Sacrificial Pact--Alot of promise here. I don't like paying health for a shield that's designed to keep me from losing health in the 1st place. I also don't like the shield being based off of current health, making it less effective the closer I am to dying (That's backwards. The effect shouldn't change at all). I'd much rather see it based off 25% (or whatever) of just YOUR MAX health (remove the pet from the equation), increased by 400%, and as a upgrade to Twilight/Fury Ward, with a shorter cd (30-45 sec, 20 sec duration seems fine but may have to be reduced on a 30 sec cd). I also think Twilight Ward would work far better if it absorbed ALL spell damage like Cata Nether Ward did.

Dark Bargain--seems fine, once I understood it's not supposed to be complete damage immunity

Tier 4: The recent PTR change to Burning Rush would seem to make this tier (with a tweak to Blood Fear) better as an anti cc tier rather than the current self sacrifice tier (which I'd rather see less of whenever possible)

Blood Fear--Enemy pets/guardians triggering this seems a waste of a GCD, especially if it is dispellable/stealable also. Cd seems a bit too long as well. How about adding a passive, control impairing effect reduction (25-35%? See above note)?

Burning Rush--Movement speed protection is a nice addition. Health cost still seems a bit high, unless it's to keep you from camping in it long term.

Unbound Will--Health cost is too high. Needs to come down ALOT. 2-3 sec of immunity afterwards for me and the pet would be STELLAR as well (since I'm paying a health cost). And it doesn't remove all movement/controlling impairing effects as advertised (The stun from Whitemaine in Scarlet Halls for example).

Tier 5: Just needs damage balanced between the 3. Excellent distinction of perks.

Tier 6: Kil'jaeden's Cunning has spoiled me for this Tier. Serious work will have to be done with the other 2 talents to bring them in line.

Archimonde's Vengeance: Remove the active effect (I don't know of any spell in game currently where I'd wanna lose a passive effect while the active is on cd. Just seems like weird design), then maybe keep or boost the porcupine effect (or change it completely) to 10% and increase it by 5% for each 25% in health you lose (above 75% is 10%, between 75-50% is 15%, between 50-25% is 20%, below 25% is 25%)?

Kil'jaeden's Cunning: LEAVE THIS ALONE. FOREVER.

Mannoroth's Fury: This definitely needs to be a toggle effect like Burning Rush, for the times when I want to aoe without pulling half the instance. Add maybe another passive, theme appropriate effect for single target damage spells too, that doesnt deactive during the aoe toggle (maybe increase their range by 5-10 yards) and that's a wrap.

That's all I have for now.
90 Human Priest
11580
You know why the new system is vastly superior to the old system?
In between fights, if I'm not in combat, I can completely change all my talent point selections to match the situation I'm in or need to perform.

That level of versatility is awesome.


Your a warlock...all you do is dps..../facepalm


i can up my dps with my shadow priest depending on if its a single target fight, add fight with every thing spread around the room, add fight with everything stacked together, if im at max range of the boss or i have to stack on his butt......

im sure its the same thing with evey class...
90 Human Warrior
11295
I know I've posted this many times, because I really hate the new talents. There really aren't any talent "trees" anymore. You pretty much have no choice to customize anything anymore. You pick a spec, and everything is already there. Aside from the 3 choices you get every 15 levels or so, character customization is gone....

I guess I've been having nostalgia moments lately, especially for the talent trees. As I'm leveling up alts I realized the customization is just not there anymore. Even if you went with the "cookie cutter" talent path, it was still fun to put all your talent points into your trees. So as I mentioned, now that I'm leveling up alts I'm realizing I really miss all the talent points and the old system.

The new system, which does have some really cool abilities, takes just 6 clicks to be done customizing your character. It's my wish that the old talent trees make their return in some form or another. Yes, it requires more work to design due to the amount of options, but the reward for players to actually have "talent tree's" would be amazing. The ability to put points into 3 different tree's was something that truely made your character unique. i.e. having a dps spec but putting some points into a healing tree for survivability.

I know some will dislike the amount of points you had to spend, but to me, that is what made customizing your character fun. You actually had to spend some time putting in all those precious points you've earned leveling up and seeing all your abilities increase or even gaining new abilities.

I typed a little more than I wanted too, but I'm really starting to miss having the 3 talent tree tiers and all those talent points to truely customize your character and their talents and abilities"
90 Pandaren Shaman
5640
Just recently back to WoW but played for about a year after closed beta.

I was wondering how people felt about the switch to the new system off of the old Talent Point system? I wasn't around for the original discussion but I guess you can tell by the title how I feel about it.

Post away...


Everyone ALL WAYS picked the SAME spec for MAX dps and MAX healing (and tanking quality)

having 200 points to put in different places will/could never change that fact.

The current talent system has some great/cool talents and some lack luster talents thus making the pick up to the player.

done and done, blizzard made the right choice.
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