Talent tree system or paint by numbers?

90 Pandaren Shaman
5640
I know I've posted this many times, because I really hate the new talents. There really aren't any talent "trees" anymore. You pretty much have no choice to customize anything anymore. You pick a spec, and everything is already there. Aside from the 3 choices you get every 15 levels or so, character customization is gone....

I guess I've been having nostalgia moments lately, especially for the talent trees. As I'm leveling up alts I realized the customization is just not there anymore. Even if you went with the "cookie cutter" talent path, it was still fun to put all your talent points into your trees. So as I mentioned, now that I'm leveling up alts I'm realizing I really miss all the talent points and the old system.

The new system, which does have some really cool abilities, takes just 6 clicks to be done customizing your character. It's my wish that the old talent trees make their return in some form or another. Yes, it requires more work to design due to the amount of options, but the reward for players to actually have "talent tree's" would be amazing. The ability to put points into 3 different tree's was something that truely made your character unique. i.e. having a dps spec but putting some points into a healing tree for survivability.

I know some will dislike the amount of points you had to spend, but to me, that is what made customizing your character fun. You actually had to spend some time putting in all those precious points you've earned leveling up and seeing all your abilities increase or even gaining new abilities.

I typed a little more than I wanted too, but I'm really starting to miss having the 3 talent tree tiers and all those talent points to truely customize your character and their talents and abilities"


No one ever "customized" their talents. It was ALL WAYS same. I know you want to think it gave you choice but it didn't. If you were a tank/dps/healer you picked the same exact talents has 5 million others did before you.
31 Blood Elf Warlock
7655
IMO, anyone who believes the new talent trees are better is clearly smoking some type of herb too much. While there really wasn't much choice before, there isn't any choice now. 4/6 of my talent tiers have almost zero bearing on my performance. Of the two tiers that do, one of them is an extreme no brainer to me and the other one doesn't change much.

Instead of revamping the trees to actually give us some choice, they just repackaged it and told us we had more effective choices. And they lied.

At least before, when we leveled up a new character, we got that all power talent point to actually see a real improvement. So, yea, bring back the old tree. Even if they were cookie cutter, they are vastly superior to what we have now.


^ I feel the same way, especially with my druid who I worked so hard on. Now I feel as though she's not performing as well as she should be.
90 Gnome Priest
19365
Just a few thoughts; I personally like the change to the new talent system, here are some of my thoughts.

Things I like:
-Being able to swap talents mid dungeon/raid makes for a far more unique experience (I may want mind control, I may want Void Tendrils).
-Works well with the glyph page (I used to carry around stacks of glyphs) and the dust/tome currency works well
-Never having to go back to my trainer to respec is awesome
-Potential.
When a tier works well it really shows the potential of the system; I'm a big fan of tier 6 for priests for example. I use every talent on there due to their strategic uniqueness. (even DS)
-Ease of use.
Having recently inspired a friend to play for the first time, the new system is much easier to understand and work with for someone unfamiliar with the game.

Things I would change:
- The awkwardness of changing talents on the run is frustrating.
Changing talents needs to be like glyphs now. Glyphs used to have a cast time to place the glyph in the slot. You removed this with MoP but left a similar system in place with talents. When I want to change from cascade to halo, I have to click to remove the glyph, then click again on the new talent I want and then click yes on the pop-up window to place it. I understand that if we all took our time then the extra second it takes to change talents seems like very little, but in reality people tear through dungeons like wildfire and one second makes all the difference.

Remove the middle step. When I open my talent page and I have halo selected and I want cascade, let me click on cascade, window pops up confirming removal and replacement of talent. No cast times. Just click yes and it's switched.
I think this would make it feel more appealing to sub talents in and out on the run and since I don't see a future where switching talents mid combat is possible I would be excited about this change.

In regards to PvE and PvP only tier talents
While many of us do pvp and pve, I'm sure an equal amount solely pvp or pve. This devalues the system for them. I would not feel this way except for the fact that by providing PvE only servers, you have the potential to bred PvE only players who will not now nor ever be excited by a pvp tier of talents (or vise-versa).
A larger concern is a tier where only one talent suits a particular spec. I would be content with pve/pvp tiers if all 3 were of interest to each spec. I know this is an ongoing battle to make the perfect tiers so I'm content to see what happens with time.
(I would reference priest tier 3 but I know they're working on it already)

Honestly, people want to click buttons. The thing that hurts this talent system the most is going from making what felt like 60 choices (obviously pre cata) to making 6. I like the new system but it doesn't feel as rewarding during the levelling experience.

If I was making changes I would make it feel a bit more like the hunter pet talent system from cata (haven't played one in mop so no idea if there's been changes). I would like to see a 4th talent added to every tier with the next expansion, and have some lower tier choices affect the availability of higher tier choices. To explain. Let's say on our new talent trees that all six tiers now have 4 choices each. You want tier 6 choice 4 so if we remember our old trees we have to put a 'point' into tier 1 choice 3 and a point into tier 2 choice 3 OR tier 4 choice 1... now when follow our shiny gold line from those lower tier talents we see that we've unlocked choice 4 of tier 6... something like that...

I don't know if I explained it well, but in my head I see it as bringing back a little of the old and a little of the new. All your choices matter, but if you want Halo as a shadow priest, than you can't talk FDLC or something like that... trade offs...

TLDR; you should.
100 Tauren Druid
10175
Is Blizzard is telling us we aren't smart enough to manage 50+ talent points and 9 glyph sockets? By reducing it to 6 and 6, and making it so most of those choices have no game impact, they have given us variety!


Yes. Because in those days of spending dozens of talent points, you really only had "choice" for about a half dozen of those. All the rest were mandatory unless you wanted to severly gimp your toon. (Ever run a raid with a Prot Warrior who didn't spec for Last Stand or Shield Slam?) And those "optional" points were pretty minor -- do you want 1% crit, or increased rage generation?

So now we get all our required tools, and then we pick additional tools. I change my spec quite often, going from HotW to NV, and SotF to Incarnation, all depending on the fight and who else may be around for healing.
100 Undead Warlock
9260
honestly things aren't much different now than before.

There are still right talents and wrong talents, you can still find the theory crafter sites that tell you the best talent selections for optimum DPS.

The new system might be mechanically different but it's not like it's an improvement.. On most tiers you are going to have 1 talent that stands above the others.

How many Warriors for example don't take Second Wind?
90 Blood Elf Paladin
11680
01/25/2013 12:56 PMPosted by Kerranggaroo
Is Blizzard is telling us we aren't smart enough to manage 50+ talent points and 9 glyph sockets? By reducing it to 6 and 6, and making it so most of those choices have no game impact, they have given us variety!


Yes. Because in those days of spending dozens of talent points, you really only had "choice" for about a half dozen of those. All the rest were mandatory unless you wanted to severly gimp your toon. (Ever run a raid with a Prot Warrior who didn't spec for Last Stand or Shield Slam?) And those "optional" points were pretty minor -- do you want 1% crit, or increased rage generation?

So now we get all our required tools, and then we pick additional tools. I change my spec quite often, going from HotW to NV, and SotF to Incarnation, all depending on the fight and who else may be around for healing.


Not to mention that for most classes you had one spec, one talent choice and that was it.

You couldn't change from fight to fight, if you wanted to pvp you had to respec completely...it was very annoying.

All these people saying how much choice they had...what choice?
90 Night Elf Hunter
8595
01/25/2013 08:51 AMPosted by Squekor
It's like Henry Ford used to say, "You can get the model T in any color you choose, as long as you choose black".

Its not even close to this.

The old system wasnt a system at all. It was chose this and this otherwise your a baddie L2P
Now the new system provides an actual CHOICE.

There are some talents people say and the only choice yet i watch a tonne of glad videos on youtube and alot of them run different setups from each other so how can you sit there and claim only one choice is the "right" choice.

Each tier of talents has a flavour to it and you can pick what flavout you like without putting yourself at a disadvantage.

Warlock for ex,
i think it is the tier 5 talent where you have service vs sacrifice. I have seen glad videos on youtube of people running either one.

IMHO the new system is a HUGE improvement as there is more than one viable option
I miss the old talent trees only for leveling. It was nice to have a point to spend at every level, or every few levels in cata.

But these new trees are great for max level. On my warlock I have to decide between sacrificing my pet, making it stronger, or having a cooldown for an extra pet. I do only use 2 with regularity and my top tier never changes. (Casting while moving broke me for any other caster.)

They definitely need tweaking but they are far superior to the old ones.
90 Draenei Shaman
13805
01/25/2013 07:19 AMPosted by Gillinus
I was wondering how people felt about the switch to the new system off of the old Talent Point system? I wasn't around for the original discussion but I guess you can tell by the title how I feel about it.
First, the switch wasn't as drastic as many make it out to be. Under the old system you were forced to distribute 10 points among 3 talents before you could add points to another set of talents. How is that much different from being given a talent and having to pick from three others at level 15? The old system was a little more subtle about forcing you into the "right" choice, but it still forced you. The new system has streamlined that process. If you look closely, this is (for the most part) what's been done to convert the old trees to the new system:

  • Prime glyphs are now baseline skills
  • The most important spec-specific skills in the first two rows of each talent tree (that no one in their right mind would have taken for offspec anyways) are now baseline skills.
  • The remaining skills from the first two rows of each talent tree have become talents or glyphs.
  • Skills above the first two rows that you used to be forced to take via point requirements are now baseline skills (you were forced to take them before and you're forced to take them now -- no change there)
  • Skills above the first two rows that were truly optional are now spec-specific glyphs.

As you can see, you haven't really lost or gained flexibility with respect to choices under the new system -- the process is just streamlined now. In fact, I would argue that the new system requires more thought because it enables you to tweak your spec on the fly. In other words, if a certain talent lends itself very well to a specific mechanic on an upcoming fight a good player now has the option to swap it out then and there. That was not the case before. This means that I can no longer just copy my build over from wowpopular.com or noxxic.com. I now have to analyze and re-evaluate my build prior to every fight to ensure the best build possible for any given situation.

Is the new system more convenient? Yes. However, the added convenience allows our builds to be dynamically tweaked, adding a new level of complexity that was not tenable under the old system.
Edited by Ronduwil on 1/25/2013 1:52 PM PST
90 Troll Warlock
7565
I mean, as a minigame, it was meant to be something like a crossword puzzle. Which I guess would be fine if this was a single player game, but people have a tendency to get together and solve the crossword puzzle pretty quick.

I think also and this is the real reason they did away with them, is that people not only find the crosswords that the devs intended, but they also found solutions to the puzzle that the developers did not intend at all. *cough* sl/sl *cough*

And if you're trying to balance for PvP, loopholes like that just make your life hard as a dev.

And it makes the game more n00b friendly - there's no more snickering at someone because they didn't think to google the hivemind to see what the correct solution to the crossword puzzle was.

Of course, gemming and reforging have sorta taken the place of the talent tree system - and once again you can tell who has googled for the "correct" solution and who hasn't...
100 Draenei Mage
9380
New talent tree is more boring, less challenging, less choices, no fun at all compared to old talent tree.
100 Worgen Mage
12790
Still have to deal with the jerks who insist you use their "cookie cutter spec" or "you're bad"

Morons.
01/25/2013 01:55 PMPosted by Kayabao
New talent tree is more boring, less challenging, less choices, no fun at all compared to old talent tree.


What was so challenging about googling the optimal spec for your class? The "choices" you had might have been 5 extra points to spend how you want.
90 Draenei Shaman
13805
01/25/2013 01:55 PMPosted by Kayabao
New talent tree is more boring, less challenging, less choices, no fun at all compared to old talent tree.
Please specify a choice that you had under the old talent tree that is no longer available in the new talent tree. I personally can't think of one.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
13820
I only like how you can change talents depending on the fight. There are no choices right now for most specs though, I can only back up Holy Pallies since that's my main. On that note, there's only a couple tiers that present a real competitive choice, though one of them isnt gamebreaking (first tier, movement speed modifiers). It is sad how the last tier is a braindead choice, just how glyphs for Holy are all garbage and you can actually raid without glyphs, same with how useless the level 87 spell is.
100 Night Elf Hunter
7250
I thought I'd hate the new system, but so far I think I like it. At least for hunters (the only one I really pay attention to despite having 18 alts at the moment) it lets you choose a style for your fights that doesn't completely ruin your chance to damage an opponent. If you'd rather slow an enemy than escape to distance you can choose that route. If you tend to fight in groups and want to aoe a bunch or if you'd rather play solo and choose a larger impact on a single player you have another option. If you want lower impact but short cooldowns choose this - if you want broader impact but long CDs choose this. I think those are nice choices, and very hard ones to make so having a lot of them would be frustrating. I think I'm mostly thumbs up.

Now about the amount of CC in the game... :( Horrify, Fear, Charm, Sap, Root, Scatter, Whirlwind, rinse and repeat... WAY too much of that, I truly hate that a high amount of fights I may never get a single shot in, but that's veering off topic!!!
100 Night Elf Rogue
9890
01/25/2013 02:57 PMPosted by Ronduwil
New talent tree is more boring, less challenging, less choices, no fun at all compared to old talent tree.
Please specify a choice that you had under the old talent tree that is no longer available in the new talent tree. I personally can't think of one.


As a sub rogue, I could choose a spec that sacrificed a small (<5%) amount of damage in order to gain enough healing and damage reduction that healers didn't need to heal me in raids.

I could also choose a spec that lost some sustained damage for a little higher burst damage.

I also lost many useful talents going from 4.x to 5.x, such as increased crit on backstab.

Now the only meaningful choice for PvE rogues is Leeching Poison or Elusiveness.
90 Troll Shaman
14080
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4079875775
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