Need to pick the brain(s) of 10m HPals

100 Draenei Paladin
13390
Hey guys, I currently maintain a Holy Paladin sticky over on the Paladin forums, but one issue that I'm running into as I try to edit it is: I'm almost exclusively a 25 man healer. I have healed maybe 4 or 5 different 10m raids since MoP launched, and two of them were on alts. So, long story short, I'm having a bit of trouble relating some of the mechanics as I see them in 25's to the way they play out in 10's.

In other words, I want to pick your brain. FOR SCIENCE! Or at least, for the sake of making my guide more relevant to the majority of the WoW population.

1) How reliant are you on Beacon-swapping? As in, do you frequently swap Beacon off of your active tank to another target that you're about to DL, or do you leave it on the tank - forgoing Holy Power in favor of some trickle healing?

2) What's your typical LoD:EF ratio on many fights? What are the fights that are exceptions? I don't expect exact numbers of course, just a general guesstimate.

3) What fights do you find yourself specializing your talents for?

For example, right now I've taken to speccing into Holy Avenger for a few of our 25m heroic fights where I feel that a burst cooldown outweighs the extra average Holy Power you get from Divine Purpose. Obviously, I also spec Hand of Purity for fights with DoT damage (there are a few).

I'm especially curious about Holy Prism and Light's Hammer. To be honest, I have yet to use Holy Prism since the 5.1 buff - in retrospect, it probably would've been nice for H Spirit Kings, but even then Light's Hammer is pretty neat for the Maddening Shouts.

4) How situational is Holy Radiance? As in, how many fights do you neglect it almost entirely, and how many fights are you using it with some frequency?

5) Do you have "healing assignments" so to speak? I realize that they wouldn't be strict in a 10m format, but is there still a bit of a rule that you should focus more on the tanks and let the other healer focus on other people, or vice versa, or something?

Thanks in advance for the replies/insight, and as a reward for answering (or just reading, really), here's a screenie of me trolling Elethia:

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1305/spiritshelltroll.jpg
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90 Human Paladin
13130
1. Depends on the fight.

Amber-Shaper I beacon bounce a lot during the start when the tanks are going in and out of constructs. Not swapping it is just a waste of healing.

Fights I bounce beacon - Blade Lord (on heroic I beacon to the DoT victim), Garalon, Amber-Shaper, Empress, Lei-Shi, Feng, Gara'jal (mostly to myself for spirit realm), Elegon. If it is a fight that is 2 tanked but the tanks aren't permanently tanking something I'll beacon swap (unless I'm being lazy >_>)

On other fights where tanks have separate targets such as WotE or single target fights I don't.

2. Usually EF: LoD heavily favors EF. LoD tends to get more usage during heavy periods of raid wide damage (rain of blades, crushes, etc.) and generally during those periods there are already several EFs rolling.

3. I'm pretty awful about this. I tend to not swap out DP for HA even though it may be better for periods with regularly spaced out damage phases. Outside of that the only talent I tend to swap is hammer for sentence on Tsulong. Again, I'm fairly awful about this. So far it hasn't bit me in the !@#.

4. Holy Radiance gets use if we have a stacked period during heavy raid wide damage. I don't mind using it on Feng during velocity if the bubble is down, or on epicenter because our 2nd tank refuses and/or fails at interrupting every other epicenter. If we have a stacked raid group and raid wide damage I don't not use it unless I'm getting a string of DP procs in which case I'll ignore it for LoD. If the fight doesn't have a relatively tight stacking period it tends to be ignore almost entirely except for touching up tanks+melee.

5. Rarely. The only places I can think of where we assign healers are; H. Stone Guard, H. WotE, Empress phase 2, and H. Elegon for the soaker. Outside of that it's kind of rare that we bother actually addressing assignments.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15510
1) I pretty much leave mine on the tank. If the tanks are trading out tanking (amber shaper, blade lord, gara'jal, etc) I'll move it to the one that's currently tanking but I'm definitely not constantly swapping.

2) It really depends on the fight. I tend to use LoD more than EF I think. Stone Guard is more EF, Feng is more LoD, Gara'jal is EF, spriit kings is LoD on Qiang and sitting on my !@# for the rest of the fight, Elegon is LoD in burn phase, EF otherwise, Will is LoD during Titan Gas and EF during adds. Vizier is mostly LoD I think, except when our mage is getting pwned by attenuation, Blade Lord is EF in phase 1 and LoD in phase 2, Garalon is mostly EF, Wind Lord is LoD for RoB, and amber shaper is currently a cluster$%^- b/c people can't interrupt explosions.

3) Whatever is progression. I use Clemency/HA/Light's Hammer for 90% of the fights only occasionally swapping something else in. I'm thinking with the 4 pc I now I have I might get more use out of Divine Purpose than HA though. More HP generation means more chances to proc DP?

I've tried Holy Prism but I can't say I find it useful.

4) I probably still use holy radiance waaaay too often. But any time we're stacked (Feng, Gara'jal, various burn phases) it gets a lot of use.

5) Yes, but they're very loose. Typically I take one tank (via beacon), our resto druid throws lifebloom on the other tank, and we just heal the raid making sure to keep an eye on the tanks. But there's a lot of crossing and overlap. I think we may need some stricter assignments for Wind Lord, so people die less from Rain of Blades in phase 2. That *!@# hurts.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
1) How reliant are you on Beacon-swapping?


So far, not at all. The healing from multiple EFs rolling on the tank is way too good to pass up.

01/24/2013 09:27 PMPosted by Tailias
What's your typical LoD:EF ratio on many fights?


5:1 but I'm a bit strange in that I will roll 1 HP EFs on a lot of people to proc as many DPs as possible. And to stack master shields. It's the disc priest in me. >.>

01/24/2013 09:27 PMPosted by Tailias
What fights do you find yourself specializing your talents for?


heavy tank damage that isn't humungous= EF, DP, Execution.

heavy raid damage in bursts= EF, holy avenger, hammer.

Aoe on the move frequently= EF, Prism, DP

WotE style fights= SS, Holy Avenger, Execution

I take purity over clemmency if there's a ticking dot on tanks.

(Don't look at my paladin's raid experience, Every fight i've done on my priest i've tried in a pug, unsucessfully (due to stupid people in pugs.))

4) How situational is Holy Radiance? As in, how many fights do you neglect it almost entirely, and how many fights are you using it with some frequency?


Only find it useful when abusing avenger or the raid is stacked. And even then, I could easily just roll some EFs and spot heal through most damage. Or let light's hammer take the load.

01/24/2013 09:27 PMPosted by Tailias
Do you have "healing assignments" so to speak?


Tanks and debuff healing. As long as those are covered I can spot heal to my heart's content. Even then, I can easily raid heal as well as a druid.

Edit: Also... LMAO at the link.
Edited by Keirisonis on 1/25/2013 8:46 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13330
1) How reliant are you on Beacon-swapping? As in, do you frequently swap Beacon off of your active tank to another target that you're about to DL, or do you leave it on the tank - forgoing Holy Power in favor of some trickle healing?

Routinely, except when I have 2 tanks taking damage at the same time. But I have the PvP set bonus, so each point of holy power is worth about 50% more than it would be otherwise. Without that, I might have to re-evaluate.

2) What's your typical LoD:EF ratio on many fights? What are the fights that are exceptions? I don't expect exact numbers of course, just a general guesstimate.

0:1.

Well, OK, maybe like 1:50. Sometimes I get lazy and just want to close my eyes and mash a button. Especially on Blade Lord and Garalon where I'm running around a lot. But it's almost never a good idea.

3) What fights do you find yourself specializing your talents for?

In general, if you find yourself having an "I can't heal this" moment, respec to Holy Avenger. I do it for Garalon and Wind Lord. The rest of the time, I run Divine Purpose because it's more fun. I suspect that for heroics, Holy Avenger is where it's at.

Execution Sentence is the talent to have for Tsulong. Light's Hammer is nice most other places, although I suppose Execution Sentence might also be good for Will. Holy Prism is my least favourite.

I pretty much always run Eternal Flame because of the aforementioned PvP 4-piece. But without that, Selfless Healer might be pretty sexy in 10s.

4) How situational is Holy Radiance? As in, how many fights do you neglect it almost entirely, and how many fights are you using it with some frequency?

a) All of them.
b) None of them.

Slight caveat: If your group can manage the tornado phase on Blade Lord in some sort of organized fashion such that you actually have >7 people alive on the same end at the same time, HR is quite powerful, especially with Holy Avenger. I also suspect it's not bad for Protectors p2, although I can't say for sure since I haven't healed that fight.

I imagine some other 'stackable' fights, like Feng, actually have damage during the stackable phases on heroic. And if you're healing with a non-discipline priest or another class, maybe it's even worth using HR on normal. But you really need >7 people stacked and some substantial damage.

5) Do you have "healing assignments" so to speak? I realize that they wouldn't be strict in a 10m format, but is there still a bit of a rule that you should focus more on the tanks and let the other healer focus on other people, or vice versa, or something?

I heal with a disc priest. While we don't precisely have 'healing assignments' per se, there's sort of an unspoken agreement that I'm in charge of making low-health people not die, while he's in charge of blanketing the raid so people don't get low health in the first place.
Edited by Kaels on 1/25/2013 11:23 AM PST
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100 Draenei Paladin
13390
Thanks for the replies, folks. Pretty interesting info thus far!

@ Kaels: Why Execution Sentence for Will?
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90 Worgen Priest
9630
01/24/2013 09:27 PMPosted by Tailias
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1305/spiritshelltroll.jpg


And the tears of the entire healing priest community flooded the canals of SW. :( SS for life!
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/25/2013 11:30 AMPosted by Fluffychoo
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1305/spiritshelltroll.jpg


And the tears of the entire healing priest community flooded the canals of SW. :( SS for life!


Those Priest tears were used to make a sparkle pony of EPIC PROPORTIONS!
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100 Draenei Paladin
13390
I also like to click off that channeled thing, Soothing Mists or w/e, when Swaggle (MW monk) spams heals on me randomly between pulls or in Shrine of Seven Stars or something. I just enjoy trolling my co-healers, and I'm sure they will get me back sooner or later.

The confused look, the standing there, followed by "WTF" is soooo worth it.
Edited by Tailias on 1/25/2013 11:34 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13330
01/25/2013 11:27 AMPosted by Tailias
@ Kaels: Why Execution Sentence for Will?

Tanks get pounded, and it's a pretty nice mini-CD for the worst bits.

If you were more worried about the raid, you'd go with Light's Hammer, but keep in mind you can only really use it on Titan Gas, so that's like 3 times in an 8+ minute fight. I suppose you could drop it on the tanks just to not completely waste it, but they like to move around a lot.
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91 Human Paladin
8835
1) I usually keep it on whoever is tanking at the time. For Garalon I keep it on myself when I kite, and on a random melee the rest of the time, to help keep them up when I'm not in range. On Stone Guard I generally have it on whoever is taking more damage, which can kinda vary even if one tank always has 2 dogs in our group.

2) Considering I'm usually focusing on tanks more than our other healers, I use EF a lot. For AoE situations I still stick with LoD. I simply do not understand people who try to do EF blankets over LoD. A decent amount of instant healing 5 times in a row with a DP proc chain > WoG + a small HoT on 5 people during a DP proc chain. (Unless it's something like Spiritbinder, with the voodoo dolls.)

3) I generally run with Holy Prism, with a couple exceptions. If I remember, I use Light's Hammer for Spirit Kings and Vizier. That's about it. Sometimes I forget to swap to it, and I do just fine, Holy Prism is nice. I may swap to Holy Avenger for Wind Lord.

4) I don't ever neglect this spell. If it's a more spread fight, I'll either run to a place where I will hit the most people and use it on myself, or cast it on a hurt melee player, since there is always someone near them. I mean, I don't spam it like DS Ultraxion, but it's still very useful. I understand it eats mana, but if you can still be fine with your mana and also use this, it's worth it.

5) We don't generally do healing assignments, but it's pretty understood that if there's heavy tank damage I'll be dealing with most of it. But everyone helps everyone where it is needed.

Can someone explain to me why people think EF blanket > LoD and Holy Radiance is trash so often?

note: Healed through normal Sha of Fear. Haven't healed Will due to our group skipping Elegeon after a few weeks and going to HoF. I have healed Elegon into the last phase though. Obviously I'm not a heroic raider so far this tier, but normal is enough to answer with I think.
Edited by Tóri on 1/25/2013 12:10 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13330
01/25/2013 12:07 PMPosted by Tóri
I simply do not understand people who try to do EF blankets over LoD. A decent amount of instant healing 5 times in a row with a DP proc chain > WoG + a small HoT on 5 people during a DP proc chain.


01/25/2013 12:07 PMPosted by Tóri
Can someone explain to me why people think EF blanket > LoD and Holy Radiance is trash so often?

Well, like I said, I have the PvP 4-piece, so EF is 2 Holy Power while LoD is 3. So I actually get roughly 50% more EFs than I would LoDs with the same Holy Power generation, and I also get roughly 50% more DP procs outside of chains (which translates to 50% more chains of a given length).

So even if each EF does less healing (and the difference isn't huge, especially with it rolling my Mastery), I'm getting a whole lot more of them.

With the PvE 4-piece, I suspect I'd use more LoD, but EF is still extremely powerful when raid damage is uneven (rolling Mastery is amazing).

As for Holy Radiance, it's just trash 99% of the time. Why would I want a tiny heal on 3-4 people at semi-random health levels (who are pretty likely to run out of range or get healed to full during the cast time) when I could swap Beacon to the lowest-health person in the raid and drop a DL bomb for the same time investment, mana cost, and Holy Power generation but with guaranteed full effectiveness and probably more total healing?

I've tried casting more HR, but I'm always deeply underwhelmed at how little healing it actually does.
Edited by Kaels on 1/25/2013 4:40 PM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
8190
01/25/2013 08:43 AMPosted by Keirisonis
5:1 but I'm a bit strange in that I will roll 1 HP EFs on a lot of people to proc as many DPs as possible. And to stack master shields. It's the disc priest in me. >.>


This fishing for DP procs got nerfed awhile back pre 5.04 PTR. I had originally complained it promotes weird behavior trying to the game the system for procs with 1 stacks on the PTR pre 5.04. They changed it to give you the full 25% on a 3 stack and 8%ish on a 1 stack, 16%ish on a 2 stack.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
9395
1. Really depends on the fight. Standard procedure is to keep it on the current tank, but there are exceptions. One big one is garalon, where I always beacon the kiter, as it allows us to stay with the rest of the raid instead of running around babysitting the kiter. As far as ToR hopo, it really depends on the damage output, but generally if i use a DL on anyone i swap beacon to them first. That being said i rarely use DL on anyone but the tanks. Unlike most pallies it seems, I actually make regular use of holy light though.

As has been mentioned, getting a couple EF's out greatly eases tank healing as well, which is another good reason to keep it on tanks, especially when 2healing, as it frees both healers up to triage more effectively.

2. generally if I can be reasonably sure that a given target will take damage over the next 30 sec i will prioritize EF over LoD. Most fights are about a 90-10% EF/LoD. Exceptions are fights with intense burst aoe, like rain of blades, force and verve, unseen strke, blade tempest, get away, and crush. Crush I still prefer to use EF because of the ticking damage afterwards, but LoD is still needed at times.

3. Ambershaper is probably the best example of unique talent choices this tier. SS, purity, and holy avenger are all wonderful tools there. My "default" build is DP, clemency, and light's hammer. In 10 man runs I often find that lights hammer works better for specific stacked points in the fight then holy prism, as I often only hit 1-2 people with any particular cast.

4. Holy radiance is very situational. Its high mana cost and mediocre throughput means that you really have to be looking for situations where enough people are stacked to make it worthwhile. That doesn't mean it is bad, I just use tower of radiance much more then HR for extra hopo generation. I'd say i really only use it regularly on Garalon, Hwill, sprit kings (first part) and elegon. Most fights it is used at least a few times, though, especially if i've talented into holy avenger.

5. Our raid rarely sets assignments. We 2heal a lot, and it usually works out that both healers perform a bit of all roles.

Hope this helps!
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
01/25/2013 11:30 AMPosted by Fluffychoo
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1305/spiritshelltroll.jpg


And the tears of the entire healing priest community flooded the canals of SW. :( SS for life!


Hahahaha!!
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
I also like to click off that channeled thing, Soothing Mists or w/e, when Swaggle (MW monk) spams heals on me randomly between pulls or in Shrine of Seven Stars or something. I just enjoy trolling my co-healers, and I'm sure they will get me back sooner or later.

The confused look, the standing there, followed by "WTF" is soooo worth it.


Omg, I can't stop laughing at Elethia's response: "Hateful". So awesome.

Edit: Kaels, please please please do this to Profit.
Edited by Taymage on 1/25/2013 2:40 PM PST
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90 Tauren Paladin
0
I use the PvP 4-piece right now as well, which greatly tints my usages.

1) Beacon Swapping. I beacon swap constantly. Anytime a raider has taken damage and Holy Shock is on cooldown, if I'm not Holy Power capped then I'm changing Beacon, using DL, then swapping back to the tank once the 3 second cooldown is up (The glyph is the most amazing, wonderful thing ever). With the 4-piece bonus, DL on Beacon becomes more mana efficient than Holy Light off beacon. Just (it's like 3%).

2) LoD vs. EF, I almost never use LoD, in large part because with the 4-piece, EF heals for about twice as much per HP (EF heals for more without the PvP set bonus as well, but by a much narrower magin). However! I will sometimes use LoD on Divine Purpose procs (usually just to see the razzledazzle), and I will use it when my other spells can't keep up with raid healing during burst AoE damage phases (usually when people are scattered about). Since EF not only heals for more *and* rolls Mastery... my outlook is that, unless avoiding LoD will risk a raider's life, I always go with the greatest mix of HPMana/HPS, and that happens to be EF, no question. I love longevity. I love EF.

3) My default talents are US, DP, and Light's Hammer, but they aren't set in stone and my guild hasn't progressed very far raid-wise, so talent choice isn't very important for me. While the extra cooldowns from Clemency are nice, being able to bubble myself an extra 1 or 2 times per fight means I can safely ignore boss mechanics to throw out a needed heal in a risky situation to cover someone else's bum. That's us healers; perpetual bum-watchers.

Regarding level 90 talents, I like the fire and forget of Light's hammer compared to Holy Prism which is more complex to use. One special note, though: Prism is affected by our Mastery, whereas Light's Hammer is not. So I really *should* swap over...

4) I use Holy Radiance about one time per raid-wide AoE attack, such as on epicenter and Spirit Kings, sometimes twice on Force and Verve. Yes, by itself it's not too great, but don't forget that it procs Daybreak for free. HR + Daybreak easily heals for more total than a Divine Light for the same mana cost (Since we use Holy Shock anyways, Daybreak is more like a delayed heal bomb aspect of HR). Getting six people clumped together, though, can occasionally be difficult, so otherwise I entrust the raid-healing to my coheals and focus on the lowest health party members with Divine Light beacon swap and EF.

5) Yeah, 10 man is really loose when it comes to roles. My guild only gave out a healing assignment one time, back when we first fought the Stone Dogs (had to make sure our Atonement Priest wasn't assigned to the 1-dog tank). After that, we just naturally gravitated towards everyone keeping everyone up, with me a bit more tank focused because I DL spam them for MOAR HOLY POWER! Rawr! Then again, I run with Disc Priest/Resto Shaman, so it's more, I do all the heavy, single target heals and they use their happy smart heals to top people off.
Edited by Wards on 1/25/2013 2:59 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10765
1) How reliant are you on Beacon-swapping? As in, do you frequently swap Beacon off of your active tank to another target that you're about to DL, or do you leave it on the tank - forgoing Holy Power in favor of some trickle healing?


Beacon swaps depend entirely upon the fight, but for the most part I leave Beacon of Light on the active tank. There are two exceptions: Gara'jal and Garalon. When healing totems on Gara'jal, I tend to beacon myself and this is not done for holy power generation. It's merely to heal my DPS as easily as possible while ignoring having to heal myself. For Garalon, the Beacon of Light swap is done with some holy power generation in mind because I beacon whomever is kiting pheromones at the moment (plus it's nice just to have every EF tick in the raid trickle through to the kiter.)

2) What's your typical LoD:EF ratio on many fights? What are the fights that are exceptions? I don't expect exact numbers of course, just a general guesstimate.


I don't know the exact ratio, but EF is usually one of my top heals, whereas LoD is something I rarely use in comparison. Don't get me wrong here; I still use LoD, but it seems less attractive than EF blanketing in most situations.

3) What fights do you find yourself specializing your talents for? I'm especially curious about Holy Prism and Light's Hammer.


I find myself swapping from time to time. Usually, I keep Holy Prism as a quick melee fixer upper but for some fights I do swap to Light's Hammer (Lei Shi being one fight on which I switch to Light's Hammer.)

4) How situational is Holy Radiance? As in, how many fights do you neglect it almost entirely, and how many fights are you using it with some frequency?


I primarily use it as a melee heal. Primary target is the tank, and then melee receives the 'splash' of the heal. At other times, I do use it when the group is clumped up. When I'm not using EF constantly, I use it in conjunction with LoD.

5) Do you have "healing assignments" so to speak? I realize that they wouldn't be strict in a 10m format, but is there still a bit of a rule that you should focus more on the tanks and let the other healer focus on other people, or vice versa, or something?


We've just started doing heroics (it took us a month to reorganize and regear people who had quit prior to MoP.) In normal fights, it's generally FFA healing although I find on meters that I'm healing the tanks more than my cohealer does. When we kill or attempt heroics, I've found that I'm almost exclusively tank healing while my cohealers handle the raid (on most, I still blanket the raid with EF in between healing the tank since EF HoTs trickle through Beacon.)
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13330
I see other people saying they cast HR on the tank so it will splash to melee. Our melee consists of (and this is an exhaustive list) a rogue. So you can see why that whole idea sounds silly to me.

Even if it hit both tanks and the rogue and all of them were hurt...yeah. Not impressive.

YMMV. If you have one of those weird-!@# 10m comps with 3 melee, HR might work out for you more often.
Edited by Kaels on 1/25/2013 4:44 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10765
Kaels: we have a rogue, a warrior and an enhancement shaman. The raid composition actually works out just fine. Sometimes it's 2 melee, sometimes it's 3.
Edited by Nasonia on 1/25/2013 4:46 PM PST
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