Need to pick the brain(s) of 10m HPals

90 Draenei Paladin
13330
We're only up to Garalon, so I can't speak to what I'd do on some of the later fights, but I can tell you what I do on the fights we do have down. We're doing Garalon in a somewhat unorthodox manner, so I'll talk about him at the end.

1. Beacon Swapping: As a general rule, I don't do a lot. On single-tank fights or tank-swap fights (Feng, Garajal, Spirit Kings, Vizier, and Blade Lord), I'll keep it on the tank who's currently being beat on by the boss. On two-tank fights (Stone Guard, Will), I leave it on our bear as he tends to feel more spiky than our pally; it helps to even out the damage a little bit. On Elegon, I'll swap it back and forth onto whichever tank is on the add, then direct-heal the tank who has Elegon. I find that I can mostly ignore the add-tank this way, just throwing a Holy Shock his way every now and then. I do swap beacon to non-tanks is on the third phase of Feng, but it's not to generate holy power. I'll put it on whoever has Arcane Resonance since he can't stack in with the rest of the group. I'll also put it on myself when I go into the spirit realm on Gara'jal, then switch it back to the tank when I come out.

2. I used to be a really bad LoD spammer, but I've been converted to EF blanketing. EF just feels more powerful in general, and once you get several of them up, you don't usually have to do much more than maintenance heals on your beacon target. I'll still use LoD occasionally if EF isn't keeping up with the AoE damage, or I might hit it once if I get several Divine Purpose procs in a row during AoE damage, but I'm trying to train myself away from hitting it just out of habit.

3. Talents: Tiers 1-3 tend to stay pretty static; passive run speed bonus on 1, tier 2 isn't really relevant to healing, and I love my EF on tier 3. Tier 4 is always Clemency so far, especially for the extra HandOfSac, but I can see myself possibly swapping to one of the other two as we get further in progression. As far as tier 5 goes, I usually stick with Divine Purpose, but if we were having a problem keeping up with AoE damage on a specific fight, I wouldn't be adverse to trying out Holy Avenger instead. I just haven't found a situation where it feels necessary yet. Tier 6 is the complicated one. While I do like Light's Hammer for stacking fights, I do switch it up to Holy Prism and Execution Sentence situationally. Execution Sentence is useful for tank healing on Will, as was already mentioned. I find myself going with Prism mostly on less-stacked-up fights. People tend to be somewhat spread out on Stone Guard, especially if you have a ranged-heavy group. The shorter cooldown can be helpful on the first phase of Spirit Kings. I'll use it on the melee group on Elegon after Annhilations because with the angle my camera is at, it's hard to accurately aim Light's Hammer from the edge of the platform, and the holy priest usually drops Sanctuary on the ranged group, so it isn't really needed there. I can also bounce it off the middle orb on my side during Draw Power and hit a couple people, saving me a little mana during that phase. That said, if people are spending a lot of time stacked up (Feng, Garajal, etc), I'll definitely take Light's Hammer instead.

4. Holy Radiance: I try to avoid it as much as possible so that it doesn't eat up my mana. When I do use it, I always do a HR/HS combo, and I try to use it with Avenging Wrath so that I need fewer. It serves primarily as an emergency heal; if my EF blanketing and my hPriest's AoEs can't keep up, I'll throw one out to catch up. I do tend to be a little more liberal with it toward the end of fights though, especially ones that end in a high damage phase like Garajal and Elegon. When the fight's almost done, keeping people alive starts to become more important than mana conservation.

5. Healing Assignments: The only one we really assign strictly is Garalon, which I'll talk about below. We two-heal most fights, with me and a holy priest. I do tend to focus more on the tanks while she focuses more on the raid, but neither of us would ever let someone die because "they weren't my job," and we're not afraid to go outside of those roles when needed. She'll help out with the tanks on tank-heavy fights like Will, or when the raid doesn't need healing. When I run out of tanks to EF, I'll start putting it on raid members: her and myself to keep the healers up, dps who might be taking extra damage (Wind Step targets, as an example), preemptively on raid members who I know from experience are more prone to stand in stuff, or, failing everything else, just on random people. While we do focus more on the roles that our classes excel at, we don't strictly limit ourselves to that. In the end, living raid members and dead boss is what counts.

<cont. below>
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90 Draenei Paladin
13330
<cont. from above>

Garalon: This seems a little unorthodox in comparison to what I've read about other groups. Instead of 4-5 kiters, we're going to go with three: both tanks and myself. Whichever two aren't currently kiting will stay in front and absorb the frontal cone attack; between my plate armor and my shield, it doesn't hurt me too badly, and I can glyph Divine Protection, take Execution Sentence to use on myself, beacon myself to get the extra heals from the EFs on the tanks, etc. I'll be responsible for staying in front and healing the three of us, while our resto-turned-boomkin druid is going to go back to resto to help the priest with the raid healing. While this is currently untested (the druid wasn't available when we decided to try it, so we ended up having to throw dps into the kiting rotation to keep the stacks down), we think it'll work out well. Our dps tends to be on the low side overall, while our healing is fairly strong, so we're hoping that by freeing up the dps from kiting duty, they can go all out on the bug and get him down, while by not using the priest and druid as kiters (except in an emergency), they won't have to move as much and can keep up with the higher stacks more easily. In terms of my healing, I'll be treating myself like I was the tank, while treating the tanks more as dps. Like I said, it's currently untested, but we have high hopes for it this weekend, based on the strengths and weaknesses of our group.
Edited by Amphibelle on 1/25/2013 4:51 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
15450
These are some highly loaded questions. The answers will differ depending on raid make up and fights (HM vs. normal).

No.1
I rarely switch beacon, except for fights like Tsu Long or Blade Lord where I would put it on the tank that has agro. Then during Daylight, I would place it on Tsu Long. On Will HM I would leave it on our Protection Paladin who stack haste so he has a lot of self-healing (50k - 60k hps on single target fights and up to 150k hps on Wind Lord). Between his 100k SS, his self healing and beacon, I pretty much never look at his health bar on Will HM. I reserved all my direct heals for our Guardian/Warrior tanks. On Garalon HM I would put beacon on the pheromone kiters.

No. 2
Differs from fight to fight. Lots of EF on fights like Garalon and Blade Lord HMs, more LoD on fights like Vizier and Wind Lord HMs.

No. 3
Currently Holy Avenger, Clemency, Speed of Light, Fist of Justice and Light’s Hammer have permanent position on my talent tree. Speed of Light is just insanely good on fights like Vizier, Garalon and Blade Lord HMs. Clemency is also godly on Vizier, Blade Lord, Garalon & Wind Lord Hms. Light’s Hammer is just good on everything.

Technically Execution Sentence may be better for Tsu Long, but we two heal Tsu Long. Being able to drop Light’s Hammer during transition from Daytime to Nightime is huge. With the buff from Tsu Long’s breath, Light’s Hammer ticks for up to as much as 200k during the transition. On Lei Shi HM, again Light’s Hammer is nice to have during Get Away. Personally I have not found any use for Execution Sentence and Holy Prism.

I switched back and forth between EF and SS depending on the fights. I usually use SS for Will, Gara’jal, and Vizier HMs.

No. 4
Not all that situational. I found plenty of use for it. With Infusion of Light and Day Break, it is not a bad spell for building up HoPo. I kinda wish it would hit for more. It hits for 11-12k non crit average for me as compared to LoD which hits for 20 - 21k non crit average. Day Break is kinda crappy for an AoE heal, but great for tank healing, or any single target for that matter, when there is nobody else close to the tank. The tank will basically get hit by double Holy Shock. Nice for fights like Will HM or final phase of Garalon HM.

No. 5
No healing assignment per say. Although on a fight like Vizier HM you obviously have to assign healer to go on separate platforms.

Edit No. 3
I do spec into Unbreakable Spirit for Will HM to for more spark soaking.
Edited by Rasul on 1/25/2013 5:54 PM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
01/25/2013 05:48 PMPosted by Rasul
These are some highly loaded questions. The answers will differ depending on raid make up and fights (HM vs. normal).


That's the idea. I know the class mechanics, I need to understand the nuances of 10m's. If that means getting 15 different answers and figuring out why they're different, then so be it.

I do appreciate everyone's input, I've only skimmed most of the thread thus far because I'm back and forth between my DK and complaining in the Tech forums about world latency, but I'm going to give every post a thorough read when I get a moment later.

<3
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90 Draenei Paladin
10900
1) How reliant are you on Beacon-swapping?


Depends on the fight. I might swap them out a time or two on every fight, but predominately, you'll see me beacon swapping on blade lord, amber shaper, garajal.

2) What's your typical LoD:EF ratio on many fights?

Typically you'll see me using more of a blanketing affect. Using LoD to refresh shields or during intense raid wide dmg, like gara or feng.

3) What fights do you find yourself specializing your talents for?


Stone Guard- Hand of Purity, Divine Purpose, Holy Prism
Feng- Hand of Purity, Holy Avenger, Lights Hammer
Garajal- Hand of Purity, Holy Avenger, Lights Hammer
Spirit Kings- Clemency, Divine Purpose, Lights Hammer
Elegon- Unbreakable Spirit, Holy Avenger, Execution Sentence
WoE- Clemency, Holy Avenger, Execution Sentence

Imperial- Clemency, Holy Avenger, Execution Sentence
Blade Lord- Clemency, Divine Purpose, Lights Hammer
Garalon- Clemency, Holy Avenger, Holy Prism
Wind Lord- Hand of Purity, Holy Avenger, Holy Prism
Amber Shaper- Hand of Purity, Divine Purpose, Holy Prism
Empress- Hand of Purity, Holy Avenger, Lights Hammer

Protectors- Clemency, Divine Purpose, Holy Prism
Tsulong- Hand of Purity, Holy Avenger, Holy Prism
Le shi- Clemency, Holy Avenger, Holy Prism
Sha- Clemency, Divine Purpose, Holy Prism

4) How situational is Holy Radiance?


Really depends on your raid comp. We run melee heavy so I can feel pretty content to spam it on most fights.

5) Do you have "healing assignments" so to speak?


Our group only assigns healing if someone dies and we wipe. Otherwise, we pretty much have the unwritten rule that, "I take care of my group and you take care of yours".
Edited by Ceresc on 1/25/2013 7:53 PM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
13260


1) How reliant are you on Beacon-swapping? As in, do you frequently swap Beacon off of your active tank to another target that you're about to DL, or do you leave it on the tank - forgoing Holy Power in favor of some trickle healing?

Beacon swap during certain fights -- Gara'jal, Lei Shi, Sha of Fear, Amber Shaper, Tsulong

2) What's your typical LoD:EF ratio on many fights? What are the fights that are exceptions? I don't expect exact numbers of course, just a general guesstimate.

EF trumps LoD in many situations but there are some exceptions. Stone Guard if things are going south, 5+ below 50%, hitting holy avenger and then shocking/LoD combo can put out some insanely high HPS and bring everyone up quickly. I do take the glyph that drops LoD to 4 players but buffs the healing. In 10 man it's very strong for those clutch moments where everyone is nearby and there's 4+ ppl below 50%. Just my opinion on it.

3) What fights do you find yourself specializing your talents for?

Gara'jal, Will, Garalon, Tsulong -- I toss a flash of light glyph for Gara in case I find myself in need, that extra bit of healing helps. I usually swap to SS for Will to help our squishier tank but I don't think I bothered the last kill as his gear has come up quite a bit. Garalon I make sure I have the protector of the innocent, Tsulong I swap out light's hammer for execution sentence.

For example, right now I've taken to speccing into Holy Avenger for a few of our 25m heroic fights where I feel that a burst cooldown outweighs the extra average Holy Power you get from Divine Purpose. Obviously, I also spec Hand of Purity for fights with DoT damage (there are a few).

I gave up divine purpose a while back...HA really is a great 'go to' CD that is always reliable instead of speccing into a RNG thing.

I'm especially curious about Holy Prism and Light's Hammer. To be honest, I have yet to use Holy Prism since the 5.1 buff - in retrospect, it probably would've been nice for H Spirit Kings, but even then Light's Hammer is pretty neat for the Maddening Shouts.

Holy prism...not really something I like. I try it here and there but always find myself underwhelmed. Light's hammer is awesome. The burst healing it can toss out with the absorbs is really nice. This may change as we progress on heroics. I usually try things out if I feel something might work better.

4) How situational is Holy Radiance? As in, how many fights do you neglect it almost entirely, and how many fights are you using it with some frequency?

Radiance is always useful. I find myself tossing it on melee to top off, to build HP, to get some absorbs up before AoE and to heal during AoE. I use it a lot more now that I have my 4 set. I use it every fight but it's more a filler in some than others. Imperial Lord during F&V, Wind Lord for RoB (usually before going out and at the end, as I use my HA CD and use shock/LoD + HR tailing on. Starting with HR is my least desired choice. I use it a lot at the end of Gara and Elegon's burn phases, on melee during Will titan gas phase then on ranged group, on spirit kings first guy with the annihalate.

5) Do you have "healing assignments" so to speak? I realize that they wouldn't be strict in a 10m format, but is there still a bit of a rule that you should focus more on the tanks and let the other healer focus on other people, or vice versa, or something?

Our raid team rarely uses healing assignments. From time to time it's 'Rain, your job is to keep the tanks up' if there's some heavy tank damage and it really requires dedicated healing and as our groups only h pally that falls on me with the others helping out. We split up into groups obviously for Elegon, Sha, and we do loose assignments on Tsulong as much as two healers really dedicate to Tsulong while I do raid/Tsulong because the EFs rolling on the raid spill through the beacon and make some nice heals.

I'm probably missing some specifics as it's late but oh well!


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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12510
1) How reliant are you on Beacon-swapping? As in, do you frequently swap Beacon off of your active tank to another target that you're about to DL, or do you leave it on the tank - forgoing Holy Power in favor of some trickle healing?

I dont really Beacon Swap Much, Except for when i have a tank switch or someone is going to be taking a prolonged ammount of damage that isnt a tank(like for bladelord)

2) What's your typical LoD:EF ratio on many fights? What are the fights that are exceptions? I don't expect exact numbers of course, just a general guesstimate.

If i have more than 4 people with health problems, either because our druid or shammy is slacking, ill use LoD. But in all honesty im like 1:10 for the ratio. Dat Beacon heals for my tank is too good to pass up.

3) What fights do you find yourself specializing your talents for?

Im mostly Sticking to Diving purpose, only because when it does proc, it either saves my !@# or procs 5-7 times. I'm going to be trying the others out for fights that have been listed above, Like Garalon, because we cant seem to get him down below 30% in my guild.

In concerns to H prism, Holy Hammer and The Hot, I'm back and forth between the first 2. I've yet to see a good spot where i've thought "hey, I really could have used Stay of Execution there. But for non-mobile fights, like Elegon burn/Gara'jal, im using Hammer. For things where people are moving around a bit more, Like Stone Guard/ Kings/ im using Prism.

4) How situational is Holy Radiance? As in, how many fights do you neglect it almost entirely, and how many fights are you using it with some frequency?

For Fights with extreme raid damage such as the burn on elegon where everyone is stacked, taking damage. other than that, unless everyone is stacked/alive at the end of the hall in Blade lord, i dont use it.
5) Do you have "healing assignments" so to speak? I realize that they wouldn't be strict in a 10m format, but is there still a bit of a rule that you should focus more on the tanks and let the other healer focus on other people, or vice versa, or something?

Unless its Will, No my guild doesnt have them.
Edited by Marlucill on 1/26/2013 1:21 AM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
01/25/2013 05:48 PMPosted by Rasul
Technically Execution Sentence may be better for Tsu Long, but we two heal Tsu Long. Being able to drop Light’s Hammer during transition from Daytime to Nightime is huge. With the buff from Tsu Long’s breath, Light’s Hammer ticks for up to as much as 200k during the transition. On Lei Shi HM, again Light’s Hammer is nice to have during Get Away. Personally I have not found any use for Execution Sentence and Holy Prism.


This has been my 25m experience, so it's interesting to hear that it's been yours in 10m too :-D

I also found that speccing into either HA or SW was really, really important for keeping up my outside people on H Lei Shi. We still haven't put a tremendous amount of work into the boss (going back tomorrow!) but having reliable throughput while running in place is quite important compared to just crossing your fingers and hoping for a DP proc.

I see other people saying they cast HR on the tank so it will splash to melee. Our melee consists of (and this is an exhaustive list) a rogue. So you can see why that whole idea sounds silly to me.

Even if it hit both tanks and the rogue and all of them were hurt...yeah. Not impressive.

YMMV. If you have one of those weird-!@# 10m comps with 3 melee, HR might work out for you more often.


This is a good point. HR hitting four targets isn't bad at all, provided it is doing effective healing. Daybreak doesn't lose any effectiveness regardless of how many people it hits so you can just toss it at whoever and it heals for a nice amount. TWO targets? Not so much.

Crush I still prefer to use EF because of the ticking damage afterwards, but LoD is still needed at times.


Is H Garalon 2-healed or 3-healed? Actually, that's probably a dumb question based on how much damage there is on 25, but I'm gonna ask anyways. (Guessing 3.)

How do 10 mans handle kiter healing? My job is basically just to follow the kiter around and heal them, myself, and the next person in the rotation. Keeping a 3 HP EF on all 3 of us, casting direct heals (because obviously EF alone is not enough to keep us alive), swapping Beacons around as needed, and throwing out extra EF's across the raid members I can reach with whatever little HP I have extra is a full-time job. I have no idea how this would be handled on 10-man! lol
Edited by Tailias on 1/26/2013 11:17 AM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
13260
I can see how HR would be less helpful in a range heavy group. I didn't think to mention that our 10 man comp consists of 2 tanks, 4 melee, 2/3 ranged, 2/3 healers (our lock ranged uses his shaman for 3-heal fights).
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90 Human Paladin
15450
Is H Garalon 2-healed or 3-healed? Actually, that's probably a dumb question based on how much damage there is on 25, but I'm gonna ask anyways. (Guessing 3.)How do 10 mans handle kiter healing? My job is basically just to follow the kiter around and heal them, myself, and the next person in the rotation. Keeping a 3 HP EF on all 3 of us, casting direct heals (because obviously EF alone is not enough to keep us alive), swapping Beacons around as needed, and throwing out extra EF's across the raid members I can reach with whatever little HP I have extra is a full-time job. I have no idea how this would be handled on 10-man! lol


We three healed. It is probably two healable, except with 35 second crush and 4-min debuff from pheromones, you ended up having to have at least 8 people in the rotation. With two healers when you have one healer kiting, the healing is a bit much for one healer to handle.

In 10-man the damage from Pheromones is low enough, beacon healing is sufficient to keep the kiters up. Unless they do something stupid like standing in pheromones pool or getting cleaved.
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90 Human Priest
11345
01/26/2013 11:11 AMPosted by Tailias
Is H Garalon 2-healed or 3-healed?


We use 2 every week, and have for almost all of our kills. I think we 3 healed it once (after it was already on farm) and I just smited the entire time. I went holy for the lulz this week (I wanted to see how bad it was as I had not done any heroic bosses as holy ever) but every other week I've been disc.

We use 2 tanks and whatever ranged we have to kite and stack the debuff up as high as is necessary to keep that rotation (usually that's 6 kiters). If stacks get messed up someone fills in until the first tank's stacks reset. Our melee (rogue + whichever of monk, paladin, dk isn't tanking) sit on boss / outside legs the whole time.

01/26/2013 11:11 AMPosted by Tailias
How do 10 mans handle kiter healing?


Shields + cascade / atonement from me and direct heals from whoever the second healer is (lately it has been paladin so beacon helps a ton)
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
Interesting. Thanks guys, and grats Ama on your Sha kill btw (I probably said something to you or Tippz but yeah).

getting cleaved.


This is basically a 1-shot on 25 unless you have, like, Dispersion up. It even takes me down to 25% as a Holy Paladin with plate+shield+glyphed DP (20% physical DR). How bad is it on 10?

This has kind of evolved past HPal specifics but my curiosity is getting the best of me :-D

As far as

Holy Prism


I have not really played with this much. To be honest, I don't see a terrible lot of use for it in 25 - I considered it for H Spirit Kings, because there is a lot of running around and having an instant that helps splash and top off some of the melee would be nifty, but I had to weigh that against LH's value for Maddening Shouts. LH is amazing for those - it does a moderate amount of AoE damage that leaves no debuff, helping to break them, and then immedately turns into healing when the MC is broken to help heal the person back up. It functions like a Mistweaver's SCK but a passive ground effect. Really nice.

It seems almost like neither of our "good" level 90 talents are useful unless people are clumped up. Holy Prism is probably less useless when light on melee and spread out, but it's still a weak choice. But this is kind of conjecture from my end because I've never been in this situation (lol25raidcomp).

(I do not count Execution Sentence as anything but a fringe choice for a couple fights, to be honest. It's a neat trick up our sleeve sometimes.)
Edited by Tailias on 1/26/2013 1:01 PM PST
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90 Human Priest
11345
It doesn't oneshot you from full on 10man, but it does take most of your hp away. Looks like 300-350k on cloth.

And yes you did say something in game. Thanks again though!
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90 Human Priest
11345
Holy prism is very good in 10man for any fight without a "stack up in one place and heal through the big aoe" phase... and not Garalon because it often hits nobody due to range issues (it seems like the distance is calculated from the middle of his hitbox but I haven't really tested it).
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90 Human Paladin
15450
The cleave does not even come close to one shotting people in 10-man. It takes away 320kish from clothies and 230kish from mails.

Light's Hammer is still quite good in Garalon HM. I usually dumpt it on CD on the biggest clump of people. It did 3.2M healing on our last Garalon HM.
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90 Draenei Paladin
10900
01/26/2013 01:06 PMPosted by Amabella
Holy prism is very good in 10man for any fight without a "stack up in one place and heal through the big aoe" phase... and not Garalon because it often hits nobody due to range issues (it seems like the distance is calculated from the middle of his hitbox but I haven't really tested it).


Though I really do agree with almost everything that comes out of your posts, I have to strongly disagree here. However, I am also assigned to the melee group (to which we run heavy) and if I drop it on the leg, since my job is to chase after the melee, It often hits everyone for a nice amount.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nBB0rK6PZg&list=UUfZBqxG2bb_zAFgus1lm7kA&index=3

This was one of our first attempts on the boss where I was just learning the fight. I missed a lot of cds and my fraps crapped out on me right at the end, but you can see where proper utilization of Holy Prism is very effective.
(There is also an example of what happens when it is cast on the boss, much to my chagrin.)
Edited by Ceresc on 1/27/2013 9:10 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Priest
13490
01/24/2013 09:27 PMPosted by Tailias
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1305/spiritshelltroll.jpg


So hateful. At least I noticed! Kerias didn't even see it!
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17145
01/27/2013 10:02 AMPosted by Elethia
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1305/spiritshelltroll.jpg


So hateful. At least I noticed! Kerias didn't even see it!


I *cannot* stop laughing about this. I just can't. I'm trying to get Kaels to do it to our disc priest, but he won't.
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90 Human Priest
11345
This was one of our first attempts on the boss where I was just learning the fight. I missed a lot of cds and my fraps crapped out on me right at the end, but you can see where proper utilization of Holy Prism is very effective.
(There is also an example of what happens when it is cast on the boss, much to my chagrin.)


We have at most 2 melee + tanks and legs tend to die incredibly quickly, so our paladin uses Light's Hammer on the ranged group (who can basically just stand in the middle for most of the fight) following crush, but I can see prism being useful when you have a melee heavy group.

After looking the logs that appear to correspond to that video, I think you may be overestimating prism's value slightly - while it appears to be quite good when you do get to cast it on legs, there's a lot of the fight where there's either no legs to cast it on or those legs are not being hit by melee currently (it's cast either on Garalon himself or on a friendly target).
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