Raiding Guild Leader Needs Help...

90 Troll Monk
9685
Hey guys. This is sort of a breakdown that I need help on.

So I lead the 'Whitetusk Tribe', which I tout as a 'casual, weekend Raiding' guild, and by 'Casual raiding', I mean that we don't have a 'show up or get kicked' policy. We have guild events on the calendar, and if you sign up, you're expected to come, but if you choose to skip over it? No problem.

But here's the problem:

We are terrible. I don't know where things are going wrong, but we're 2/6 of MSV (Regular) and that's it.

I don't want to try Heart of Fear, because we can't even down the third boss of MSV, and for the past three weeks, we haven't even gotten TO the third boss. I think one of those three weeks, we beat Stone Guard (First Boss) and didn't down the second. The other two weeks? We didn't even get close to the Stone Guard.

So here's my theories:
1. We don't have two reliable tanks. We have one (And even he's getting fed up and looking to swap to DPS), so we have to pug another tank. That could be a major downfall.
2. We only have 1 reliable healer, and it's a druid. Don't get me wrong, they do really well, but druid healers (in my opinion) are severelly hurt this expansion compared to other healers. We end up having to pug 2 other healers, and I have this feeling like they're not doing that great.
3. People can't seem to get down mechanics. I don't know if it's my guild mates or if it's the people I pug...I don't know...But I can't count the number of times I said 'If you have Jasper Chains on you, get close to the person you're chained with and stick with them' or 'stay out of the cobalt mines'. There was one wipe where I whispered my friend/co-gm and told him to tell everyone to 'stay out of the cobalt mines', because I was so blue in the face/tired of saying it, that if I said it one more time, I thought I was going to puke.

Now, we have the gear. Our minimum iLvl requirement is 470, and most of our raiding members are 475+. We're just not downing content.

Here's where I need your help:
1. How do you get members? Let alone competent ones. I have a forum post on the realm forum, and that's gotten us a few, but not enough. We spam trade (Not obnoxiously. I just mean, when I get into trade chat, I post my macro once, then move on. I don't post it every thirty minutes. Same with General) and general, but that only gets us a few hits, if ever. People don't like to weekend raid (They have to do it Tuesday and Wednesday because they need to do the content NOW, by George!), but that's the only time my schedule allows (Work and all that), and I made the guild...So I should be able to participate in my own raids.

2. How do you get people to understand mechanics? We've done the fights...I dunno...20-30 times...But people are still failing. Personally? I'm doing stellar. I figured out to 'Touch of Karma/Run through the cobalt mines when no one's around' on the first day. I roll to my chained partner. Honestly? The content is -not- hard. But people aren't getting it, and I don't know why. I don't want to chalk it up to 'They're stupid'...But it feels like...They're stupid.

3. Any other tips/things I should know about guild leading effectively? I thought I had it down pat, but we've been raiding since...Uh...End of November? And still haven't gotten 3/6 MSV...And with Patch 5.2 (Hopefully around the corner), I don't want to have to wait an expansion and complete level 95 gear to finally be able to down MSV or any Pandaria content. I don't expect us to be 'Server First', but I definitely don't want to be 'Server Last'.

Thanks for the serious/non trolling/thoughtful responses.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
13815
We are terrible. I don't know where things are going wrong, but we're 2/6 of MSV (Regular) and that's it.


First thing is your armory profile - you have unenchanted gear and missing glyphs. Is this the case with your other raiders? If so, you are shooting yourself in the foot. Is everyone flasked? Are they using food and potions? All of these things can give you a big performance boost. So, make sure your group is prepared.

Second, if you are struggling to down content, log your fights and ask for advice on the Dungeon, Raids, and Scenarios forum. You will get pages of helpful advice on where specifically you are failing, and more importantly you will get insight in how to interpret logs yourself.

Third, progression raiding requires some kind of reasonable attendance policy - gear stays in the group, you don't have to reteach strategies, and people get comfortable with each other and learn to trust. Defining "casual" as "you don't have to show up" is a big mistake. You need to find people that will commit to your raid group and show up week after week. If people want to raid only 75% of the time, then get a group of 14-15 and be prepared to progress slower - but you need a stable group or there is really no point at all - you may as well stick to LFR
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90 Troll Monk
9685
01/25/2013 04:21 PMPosted by Siantha
We are terrible. I don't know where things are going wrong, but we're 2/6 of MSV (Regular) and that's it.


First thing is your armory profile - you have unenchanted gear and missing glyphs. Is this the case with your other raiders? If so, you are shooting yourself in the foot. Is everyone flasked? Are they using food and potions? All of these things can give you a big performance boost. So, make sure your group is prepared.

Second, if you are struggling to down content, log your fights and ask for advice on the Dungeon, Raids, and Scenarios forum. You will get pages of helpful advice on where specifically you are failing, and more importantly you will get insight in how to interpret logs yourself.

Third, progression raiding requires some kind of reasonable attendance policy - gear stays in the group, you don't have to reteach strategies, and people get comfortable with each other and learn to trust. Defining "casual" as "you don't have to show up" is a big mistake. You need to find people that will commit to your raid group and show up week after week. If people want to raid only 75% of the time, then get a group of 14-15 and be prepared to progress slower - but you need a stable group or there is really no point at all - you may as well stick to LFR


1. Like I said. It's not a gear thing. We're pulling the right DPS, it's a mechanics thing. We're all using potions, flasks, and food, and honestly? We're way overgeared for MSV. Isn't MSV progression groups like...465? Most of our members are in the 475 and up. We're prepared. I make flasks for the group, personally.

2. I know the fights. If I could make 9 more of myself in different classes/roles, we would be on Terrace of Endless Springs. I know this is a bold and crappy thing to say, but it's not me, and by that standard, not my raid leading. I make sure, before every fight and after every wipe, I explain the fight and where we're falling short. I also don't mistreat members and come down on them. I'm very fun loving, constructive, and such, so it's not like i'm just some tyrant and everyone hates me, therefore doesn't perform correctly.

3. We have a set schedule. Saturdays and Sundays at 4 PM server time (The few dedicated raiders we have all came to that agreeable time), but I hate guilds that are all 'If you don't raid, you're out'. What if I have to work on Saturday? What if I have a party to attend? What if I just don't feel like raiding that week? Why should I get removed because of circumstances that aren't in my control?

Also, I can't even say we have a core 10 man (There's only...I think 3 (Counting me) members who are reliable. 5, maybe, who are there about 80% of the time. We have about 7-9 able bodied raiders, but one couple had a child (Which I can't fault them for not raiding), and another couple JUST joined, so I have no idea what their schedule is like).
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90 Draenei Shaman
10060
The thing with mechanics is that there are some people who will never really be -awesome- at figuring out mechanics.

When you're a casual group and by policy can't kick people for being bad at mechanics, you need to figure how to help them succeed as much as possible. It's easy to say "get new raiders" but in most casual groups, it simply doesn't work like that.

Jasper chains are our nemesis as well -- what we figured out to minimize the "people dying to chains because they don't get close in time" was to keep the raid at a fairly tight distance until chains went out. Not melee range, but ranged fairly close to melee -- enough so that we minimized the damage taken until slow movers/etc could get closer to each other. As for cobalt, if you need to figure who is taking damage and why. Melee running through a mine after the boss? Ranged stepping into one? Are you using every opportunity to clear mines?

We're a similar group with a few differences. We also raid weekends and casually, no strict attendance policies (other than if you sign up, let us know if you can't make it) or performance policies (although we do work with people who are struggling). Our difference is that we're mostly a core group -- 8 to 9/10 of our raiders raid with us most weekends, if not every weekend. We have maybe 1 slot that rotates around a bit with people who join us a little less frequently.
Edited by Rhianon on 1/25/2013 4:39 PM PST
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90 Troll Monk
9685
Our difference is that we're mostly a core group -- 8 to 9/10 of our raiders raid with us most weekends, if not every weekend. We have maybe 1 slot that rotates around a bit with people who join us a little less frequently.


See, this is where I want to be. Obviously I want a full core group (Perfect 10 attendance), but I want people I can rely on, and a huge peice of me wants to say 'Either Raid and take it seriously, or get out', but I can't go back on my casual policy...And I know, deep down, I still want to the guild to be casual. I just wish people weren't so...I dunno...Slack? Dumb? Incompetent? I don't know what to chalk it up to, but I lose faith in my guildies for every failed raid.

As for cobalt, if you need to figure who is taking damage and why. Melee running through a mine after the boss? Ranged stepping into one? Are you using every opportunity to clear mines?


I know who's taking damage and why, and I whisper them to tell them (Because I don't feel like it's fair to crucify them in ventrilo in front of everyone), but they just keep making the same mistake. The obvious answer is 'Kick them/Don't invite them to raid', but when you barely have a team as it is? It's a rough pill to swallow to just remove a guild member from the raid group.

What's happening is, a cobalt mine will be thrown down, and people will finish their cast times before getting out, or will just ignore it completely. Also, I tell everyone who is capable (Hunter/Rogue/Monk/Etc.) of negating magic damage to rush through cobalt mines when they build up, and I see them do it, but I don't think they do it on cooldown...Maybe once a fight. But here's the problem: I tell them, after every wipe, to do it on cooldown, and as if they have amnesia, no one does it (Except me. I touch of karma like it's a religion and rush through mines. Like I said. It's not me.).

It could be the people we're pugging. I don't know. But I hate to blame people that I have no influence/control over. I want to strengthen what I know I can (Guild mates) rather than just blame the variable I have no control over (People I pug).
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90 Blood Elf Priest
4490
You say it is not your raid leading it is not gear , it is you know the fights and yet your not downing the bosses

Some of your raiders have good gear, proper chants and glyphs but some do not .. and one player missing Glyphs and gemming and chants might not make any difference but you have more than one

This suggests that if they do not care to optimize their gear, maybe they are also not caring about other aspects namingly mechanics if you say DPS is not an issue.

You might have the right DPS by the numbers but still not be dpsing the right mobs at the right time.

As to your tanking issues You have nicely geared Blood DK who is actually better geared than the prot pally you are now using.. maybe ask him if he would come in as a Second tank?

You do need an attendance policy, it does not have to be hardcore but you really need to encourage the same players to show up each week, If your constantly working with a new group each week, this can also impact your success

I am sure you know this but LFR is not the same as normals, maybe you need to make sure your raiders fully understand this point and that they know the differences and can excute the fights properly in normals

As to pugs you do have some control,, keep a list of the pugs who are good and the ones who are bad.. do not re invite the bad ones ever. Maybe talk with your raiders, do they know of friends who might be able to help out and if so what is their opinion of them as raiders? Develop a network of friends who can help out and pug from them and only if no friends are on or available do you then to go the open server and look for pugs

Definetly look at your logs, that more than anything will tell you what is going wrong and who is not executing the mechanics right.
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90 Troll Monk
9685
Some of your raiders have good gear, proper chants and glyphs but some do not .. and one player missing Glyphs and gemming and chants might not make any difference but you have more than one



I would agree with you if we weren't way overgeared. That +160 enchant is already in place by the great gear we have, unless you're telling me iLvl 475+ and full enchants is the minimum needed for successful raiding on Normal mode MSV 10 man, at which i'm going to have to rub my chin and tell my guild mates.

As to your tanking issues You have nicely geared Blood DK who is actually better geared than the prot pally you are now using.. maybe ask him if he would come in as a Second tank?


We actually don't have either of those tanking. We are using a Monk tank at the moment. Remember, raiding is not required, and some people actually join just to RP or to PvP or just to be a part of the guild. I demand nothing from the guild members except for the obvious (No trolling, no hate, no drama, etc. etc. etc.)

You do need an attendance policy, it does not have to be hardcore but you really need to encourage the same players to show up each week, If your constantly working with a new group each week, this can also impact your success


We raid every Saturday and Sunday at 4 PM. This is a reoccuring theme, and people seem to appreciate the habit as we do have some steady raiders, but despite this, they don't seem to be getting it (I think). Like I said, I'm not sure if it's my guild mates or the pugs (Kind of hard to collect data when you're in the thick of battle yourself), but when we're barely (And I mean -barely-) downing Stone Guards with 475+ gear? That's kind of sad, and the same mistakes keep getting made (Namely people not grouping for Jasper Chains, or not avoiding Cobalt Mines, etc. etc.)

As to pugs you do have some control,, keep a list of the pugs who are good and the ones who are bad.. do not re invite the bad ones ever. Maybe talk with your raiders, do they know of friends who might be able to help out and if so what is their opinion of them as raiders? Develop a network of friends who can help out and pug from them and only if no friends are on or available do you then to go the open server and look for pugs


That's really good advice, but I don't know if it's just my server or because I raid on the weekends while everyone wants to do it Tuesdays and Wednesdays, but available raiders are slim pickings. Most of the time we're spending at least 30 minutes to an hour looking for healers. And this is just bodies. Not 'good' raiders...Just iLvl 470+ and you're in. I wish we could be pickier, but there's no screening process (Save for iLvl), and we would be 3+ hours just screening through people.

Do you have advice on how to build up a good raiding squad?
Edited by Zulatal on 1/25/2013 6:22 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
4490
01/25/2013 06:21 PMPosted by Zulatal
Do you have advice on how to build up a good raiding squad?


I was lucky.. I leveled with a bunch of guys who grew tired of the leveling guild and we created our raiding guild there were just 5 of us to begin with

But we all knew someone who was interested in raiding.

We also offered something that many of the raiding guilds at the time did not
- Adult atmosphere
- No drama
- very simple loot rules
-the ability to come in on an alt
- the ability to raid on more than one toon as long as all roles were covered

The players that we attracted were raiders who were in a hardcore guild looking to gear alts and could not in their main guild. Raiders who were a bit burned out from a too heavy raid schedule, Adults who were tired of the drama and the immaturity of some guilds.

But our recruitment was basically from friend to Frriend.. often they would come in on an alt and over a time would also bring in their mains.

We learned to network and it was networking that saved us. However our server while not a top progression server.. ( it is middle of the road) is a fairly high poplulation older PVE server and that helped

I have a druid hunter on WA both 90. Druid is not geared to raid level yet. Hunter is pvp geared. 85 Holy pally is my next project. My 90 shammy is my raiding main but she is ally and not on WA

********************

I understand about not "forcing" guildies to raid, but that never stopped me from asking , hey we have an opening could you help out..... kind of thing , many of my guildies who came in as just wanting to hang, would often come in a raid occasionally and when the saw we were not tools and douche bags, they often stayed on as a raiders

I think my guild worked as it did because we all shared a some common goals, to raid to progress, to have fun and to do so without drama.

******************

I would suggest the first thing you do is really review your raid logs and if you do not know what your looking at or how to read them find someone who does. It might give you the clues as to what your group is doing wrong

Once you can see that in the logs , then have a meeting and have your raiders also look at the logs and point out the things that are going wrong

It may not be one big thing that is keeping your raid from progression but a lot of small things that when combined make you fail. good luck
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90 Troll Monk
9685
Thanks for all the advice. I'll be going over your reasoning with some of my guild mates and hopefully making adjustments.

If anyone else has advice, I am definitely all ears.

(Big ol', troll, floppy ears)
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12810
I'd also suggest running logs on bosses with similar mechanics that aren't current.

Examples - Yogg Saron and Blood Queen Lanathel both have mechanics that require a similar awareness to Jasper chains - but - your raiders could get more time practicing the mechanic in a less critical atmosphere in those. (Unless you try Yogg-0, as that could be just painful even now). The healers could keep them up at least for a time while they master watching for being chained to a partner and acting accordingly.

And for any that tend to tunnel vision - start running a few guild battleground groups. You don't have to be a pvp'er or do arena to benefit from developing eyes in the back of your head - which you learn pretty quick in bgs, or find yourself becoming very good friends with the rez dude.

And if you know you have trouble spots, ever - always run WoL (world of logs). If you aren't familiar with it, find someone who is, and ask them to work with you to interpret the information you need.

And then you can show your raiders how they can check on it themselves after a run, and see if they've improved.

And last, make sure, when you're starting with a challenging group (inexperienced, or not quick at picking up mechanics, whatever the case) encourage them to look for IMPROVEMENT as their goal for their specific problems.

So for Jasper Chains - make the goal that nobody dies to the mechanic, not the boss dying. Right now, you're struggling to make people aware, and able to track both their position/mechanics, AND role.

Set their focus on the mechanics. Generally, if someone knows their rotation normally, once they're aware of and appropriately reacting to the mechanics, the rotation/dps will come back up. Don't be alarmed if it dips as long as people aren't taking a ton of avoidable damage, missing critical interrupts, and are switching focus as needed.

Baby steps. If you get frustrated when it all doesn't come together (and I know, it can make you want to scream at times...) people will get discouraged, think they "can't" do it, and you'll have more attendance issues.

And as to those lower runs? They can also serve as great recruiting tools. Get groups for ulduar and ICC - and advertise for anyone interested. Keep it fun, make it semi regular, and you'll attract those folks who didn't get the chance to raid the content, or are intimidated by raiding who may be diamonds in the rough.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7605
Some really good points have been made previously on this thread so I won't be repeating them.

I used to run a casual raid team that also raided on the weekends last expansion, and I found it does come down a lot to attendance.

Have the calendar invite go out early in the week to get a good idea of the attendence situation of the coming raid. Book reliable people from your friendlist/previous pugs a couple days before hand. If you are still down numbers on raid day, spam trade for pugs a few hours prior to your acutal starting time. Never wait until start time to fill spot. This way you get enough time to pick and armory the recruits, and they get time to prepare for the encounter.

People generally appreciate a punctual raid that is ready to kick off as soon as they are invited. It's a lot of work for the raid leader, but it pays off well.

Meanwhile keep recruiting. Try to prioritise for 2 tanks and 3 healers on the team, as dps is always easier to pug.
Edited by Ellors on 1/25/2013 8:06 PM PST
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90 Draenei Priest
18155
01/25/2013 06:21 PMPosted by Zulatal
I would agree with you if we weren't way overgeared.

You aren't. 475 ilvl is NOT "way overgeared" for normal MSV. Just stop for a second and listen to what people are telling you. Some of your raiders are missing gems, enchants, and glyphs, and whether or not you want to admit it, that is HURTING you. You're 2/6 MSV normal, and you're claiming it's a mechanics issue, which is very well could be, but there's a domino effect you aren't considering.

First and foremost, get it out of your head that it isn't a gear issue, because it is. Your raiders' gear isn't optimized, meaning your people are doing LESS dps/hps than they should be doing, which, in turn makes the fights last longer and means you have more of the mechanics to deal with. The longer it takes your dps to burn something down, the longer your healers have to strain to keep people alive and if they aren't gemmed, enchanted, and glyphed, their stats are lower than they could be, meaning less spell power, less crit, less attack power, less mana regen. LESS of all these things + longer fights = more chances to fail at mechanics. Domino effect.

01/25/2013 06:21 PMPosted by Zulatal
Do you have advice on how to build up a good raiding squad?

Standards. Standards. Standards.

Basic raiding standards to start. Show up on time, repaired, prepared, with all consumables, fully enchanted, gemmed, glyphed, and reforged, having read and understand the strats for the fights you'll be working on. Raiding may not be "required" in your guild, but there is absolutely no excuse for raiders to show up to a raid unprepared. I'm not talking about having specific raiding professions, or serious theorycrafting, or standing in front of dummies all day practicing your rotations, but people should understand the basics of their class, what utilities they bring to a raid, and what talent choices they have and which ones may be better in certain situations.

Enforce these standards, starting with yourself. As the raid leader, YOU are the example people will follow. And if you aren't meeting basic raiding standards, you've got no right to get upset if they don't. All of this starts with you. Change the way you see your raiders, stop saying, "it isn't gear," and start expecting more out of your raid team. Don't settle for anything less than what is acceptable, and soon, your raiders will follow suit, and the ones who don't, you replace.
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90 Goblin Warlock
16280
A couple of things come to mind Zulatal. Firstly, casual doesn't have to mean bad. As Solaeris has pointed out, raiders optimise their gear - even when they 'overgear' an instance. Showing up gemmed, enchanted, properly glyphed with consumables shows a raiding attitude. That's what raiders do. To be honest, the fact that you don't even fall into that category sends the message that your raiders don't have to either. Without that raiding mindset to start out, then all the mechanic training in the world is not going to help your raid team. I agree 100% with the poster above me, it's all about standards. And as the GM, _you_ set the standards and the attitude by word and by action.

My other thought, was do your guild members want to raid? I know in a small guild, you are desperate for all the warm bodies you can get, but I learned through hard experience that if they are there only to humour you, then it's not going to work. You have to look at not just what they are saying, but how they are acting. I had guild members swear black and blue that they wanted to raid, yet turn up unenchanted, they wouldn't run heroics to improve their gear, they didn't cap out their valour points to buy upgrades. They liked the idea of raiding, but not the actuality. In order to raid casually, there is still a lot of work outside the time you are actually in a raid instance. Once you have decided on your standards, talk to your guildies. Explain that this is how it is going to be from now on. If your guildies are reluctant, or if they pay lipservice, but don't actually fulfill those standards, then you have your answer. I was GM, and I ended up leaving my guild and joining another, in order to be able to raid to the level I wanted to.

Good luck!
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90 Draenei Shaman
10060
Some specific tips -- I know it's rough on the RL, but it really helps if you assign one or two people to cobalt mine clearing and then call out for them to do it when you see mines building up. It's easy for people to get tunnel vision and forget clearing mines. We assign our rogue and DK to cobalt mine clearing and while they mostly do it on CD (I dunno, I'm a healer!), our RL will specifically call out "so and so, clear some mines please" periodically.

As far as the casting issue (finsihing a cast then stepping out of a mine), that's just something you have to constantly work on. I'm sure you are reminding everyone that moving out of mines is priority and that they -must- cancel casting and move.

To be fair, we still explode -alot- of cobalt mines...probably unavoidably so in some respects, since we are a melee heavy group. But we've gotten to the point gear and experience wise with our healing core that we can mostly cover for those kinds of mistakes. As a healer, I do mention "move out of the cobalt!" over vent when I see a bunch of people standing in it since it makes me wince to have to heal up that damage.

One big issue on dogs is having tanks experienced with the swapping and kiting -- that can make or break the fight, imo. If you only have one core tank, that could be part of your issue with this particular fight.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
13815
1. Like I said. It's not a gear thing. We're pulling the right DPS, it's a mechanics thing. We're all using potions, flasks, and food, and honestly? We're way overgeared for MSV. Isn't MSV progression groups like...465? Most of our members are in the 475 and up. We're prepared. I make flasks for the group, personally.


It is very much a "gear thing". Let's assume for a moment your group is not Paragon or Blood Legion. That means it is inevitable that your group will not be perfect on mechanics, nor will they be playing their classes optimally. Gear offsets this - sub-perfect play becomes more effective with gear. It is easier to recover from mechanics failures, and you push all phases of the fight faster. You will learn fights more quickly, and get more gear from farm. The lower-skilled the group, the *more important it is*. Make sure everyone on your team is fully gemmed/enchanted.

Plus, to be blunt, a raid leader without fully gemmed/enchated gear looks awful - why would a skilled, qualified raider join your group when the raid leader doesn't even bother taking care of his gear? I sure wouldn't. Two empty glyph slots? It isn't helping your recruitment issues at all to have an armory profile like that.

I hate guilds that are all 'If you don't raid, you're out'. What if I have to work on Saturday? What if I have a party to attend? What if I just don't feel like raiding that week? Why should I get removed because of circumstances that aren't in my control?


The nature of progression raiding is such that you can't have a revolving door of new people coming in every week. Attendance policies are for groups who value real life time over wow time, because it guarantees the time you are setting aside from friends/family will be well spent. If you want more flexibility for parties, then have a team of 12 or 13.

The point is, if your approach it is "hey, sign up for raids, or don't, I don't care!" you'll end up with a bunch of people that don't really care or understand what progression raiding is about. If your approach is, "Let's down content on a limited schedule, I want people are will willing to show up most of the time, commit to coming for the entire tier, and we'll run a roster of 12-13 for subs", you'll end up with a more dedicated team and make steady progress through bosses. You demonstrate your commitment to real life not by blowing off raids, but by being willing to unselfishly sit on nights you otherwise would be raiding so that some other person in group has the option of going to a party
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Plus, to be blunt, a raid leader without fully gemmed/enchated gear looks awful - why would a skilled, qualified raider join your group when the raid leader doesn't even bother taking care of his gear? I sure wouldn't. Two empty glyph slots? It isn't helping your recruitment issues at all to have an armory profile like that.


Pretty much this. Whenever I'm in the mood to pug and I see someone LFM, the first thing I do is check their armory. If it's not perfect I don't go.

And just to echo what others have said about your "overgearing" the content... you really don't. When Blizz says MSV is tuned for 463, they mean for top guilds with fully optimized players and strats. Fully optimized meaning enchanted, reforged, and everything else that can be done to increase performance.

Believe me when I say that a top-200 player plays 10-20 ilvls above their armory. Your performance in 475 unenchanted gear is going to be less than a top-200 raider in optimized 463 gear. You are at best adequately geared for MSV given your circumstances. If everybody in your raid is missing 3 enchants and a belt buckle and rocking 470-475, you are probably undergeared.
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90 Human Warlock
12535
I'm going to put some math behind what the others have been saying, just so you can see how big a deal gems and enchants actually are. Since this is an example, I'll be using my own stat weights and gear for the math.

1 int = 4.13 DPS
1 mastery = 2.25 DPS
1 crit = 1.52 DPS

My enchants are worth:
1730 int + 100 crit + 310 mastery = (1730 * 4.13) + (100 * 1.52) + (310 * 2.25) = 7144.9 + 152 + 697.5 = 7994.4 DPS

My gems are worth:
796 int + 120 crit + 2300 mastery = (796 * 4.13) + (120 * 1.52) + (2300 * 2.25) = 3287.48 + 182.4 + 5175 = 8644.88 DPS

Together, I gain 16639.28 DPS from properly enhancing my gear. This is without the fact that some of my gems/socket bonuses have hit, which allows me to further reforge into more optimal stats rather than hit. If I were to be missing the same enhancements you are, I'd lose 4506.4 DPS.

TL;DR: you're not vodka. Stop passing up free DPS/healing, because you need it.
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17 Draenei Shaman
0
"We are pulling the 'right" dps" at the expense of standing in crap. People dps are naturally higher and look good if all they have to do (and if they do) just stand there and pew pew pew. It appears you are looking at the dps and saying - yeap they are good - but it also appears those good dps is coming at the expense of failing miserably at mechanics. Better to have lower dps and have mechanics right. And this is the very reason why gems and enchants etc does matter, they make up for people having to move and follow mechancs. I remember once in a raid on stone guardians, my raid leader told a pug 'great dps" - I was mad! Why? Cause he caused me to die on jasper chains as he was busily worried about his dps.
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
I would agree with you if we weren't way overgeared. That +160 enchant is already in place by the great gear we have, unless you're telling me iLvl 475+ and full enchants is the minimum needed for successful raiding on Normal mode MSV 10 man, at which i'm going to have to rub my chin and tell my guild mates.


It isn't just the gear, it's the mindset. If they're sloppy with their gear, they're most likely sloppy with their play. You're complaining that they're sloppy with their play, but you're not insisting that they optimize their gear.

Start by insisting they optimize their gear.

Zulatal, it's a balance between "success" and "friendly", and it's a balance you need to figure out. It is not unreasonable to insist on fully gemmed/enchanted gear and regular attendance. The issue is more with your comfort level with respect to making "demands" of your raiders. that's understandable, especially if you're new to raid leading.

My suggestion is to announce that everyone is required to be fully gemmed/enchanted (and properly). I think what you'll find is that they don't have as much of an issue with it as you'd imagine. Once you're more comfortable with it, start implementing consistency standards. It doesn't have to be "always here or gone", run 12-13 regulars and be really lenient with people not being there as long as you can always create a guild raid group. When that stops being possible, fix the issue by recruiting new players and explaining to the ones who miss the most that it's due to their availability.

The thing is, you're going to find yourself doing that anyway. If you're successful in raiding, people are going to join, you only have 10 spots. What happens if 11 people want to go? You have to solve that problem anyway, make the decision based upon attendance and let it go from there.

And always keep in mind that you're the raid leader. You *will* make calls that people are unhappy with. It's a part of the role. You have to get comfortable with doing that if you want to be effective. That doesn't mean being an elephantine %%@#@@*% swinging !@#$%^-, but it does mean not being afraid to make some people unhappy. Because the truth is, if you spend all your time trying to make people happy, you're going to make the more serious raiders in your group unhappy. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, so why not do what you want with the raid group?
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90 Troll Warlock
8445
You're leading Casuals, and expecting more.

That is where your fault is; upon missing enchants and such. Even if I was raiding one night a week, I wouldn't join a raid leader that didn't put in as much or more effort than their raiders.
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