Raiding Guild Leader Needs Help...

90 Night Elf Druid
5980
How do you get members? Let alone competent ones.

Like I said. It's not a gear thing.


It is VERY MUCH a gear thing. Why would competent members want to join a raid of people who half-!@# something as basic and quick as spending the one-time cost to enchant, gem and reforge gear? Failing at something so basic shows that your raid team is 'casual' in the sense of not really putting in effort - I (and the people I know who raid a lot) wouldn't consider that raid team competent, which explains why you have a hard time finding competent members. Literally enchanting gear won't suddenly make your progression better, but becoming the type of raid team where people routinely put in the effort to optimize will improve both your progression and attractiveness to people who actually want to raid.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12810
I'm curious.

What made you/the guild decide they wanted to raid in this expansion?

I'm just curious about the motivation people have, expectations they have, etc.

It's been my experience that a lot more people say they want to raid before they realize just what it entails. It takes a certain amount of, well, masochism and stubborn-ness, and desire for challenge, to be gung ho week after week of wipes, to be able to look at the same boss and still have the attitude of "ok, I know what I could've done better last week and I've been working on it, you're going down this time, sucker!" on every attempt.

Could you maybe start with basics of getting the hang of teamwork in the older expansion raids that have mount rewards as potential to give people a little practice and confidence?

One of my concerns with starting a "newbie" raid group, those with little or no raid experience except maybe LFR, is it's very discouraging at first, and attrition can bleed people away faster than you can recruit 'em.

And just to back up what others have said - even if you go that route - don't neglect at least basic gemming and enchanting/reforging. It's a good example to set, and it's a good thing to get people used to making sure they're "prepared."

I'll be honest, with the plentiful mats supply I not only enchant everything I wear, but chant up guildies as soon as they have at least blues that are 440 or higher to help them in heroics. (Sooner if they ask, I have two bags and a gbank tab overflowing with mats.) I don't even consider not being enchanted. It's a habit from BC that's stuck with me. I put it on, it gets polished at the same time.

I'm not sure what you keep in the gbank, but any guild runs, have your chanters melt greens and unneeded blues for mats, and have them deposit enchant scrolls in the bank for the most commonly needed ones. Upgrading gear isn't like in cata, where gold bought first tier raid equivalent purples with rep - now it's valor as well (and rep is both gated through golden lotus and slow as hell) - which, face it, is NOT the fastest thing to accumulate. So gearing up is slower. Which means you replace it slower - so it's worth enchanting/gemming/reforging every bit of it you'll be using.

And I've found Murphy's Law applies as well - that ONE piece of gear that's the lowest, that you KNOW will be replaced asap? That's the one you're still stuck with a few months later. It just never, ever, fails.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
4490
01/27/2013 12:06 PMPosted by Shankari
And I've found Murphy's Law applies as well - that ONE piece of gear that's the lowest, that you KNOW will be replaced asap? That's the one you're still stuck with a few months later. It just never, ever, fails


I agree with this.. and will add that the one peice I think will be the easiest to replace nearly always ends up to be a pain in the rear
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90 Orc Warrior
17225

2. I know the fights. If I could make 9 more of myself in different classes/roles, we would be on Terrace of Endless Springs. I know this is a bold and crappy thing to say, but it's not me, and by that standard, not my raid leading. I make sure, before every fight and after every wipe, I explain the fight and where we're falling short. I also don't mistreat members and come down on them. I'm very fun loving, constructive, and such, so it's not like i'm just some tyrant and everyone hates me, therefore doesn't perform correctly.



That's probably the worst attitude you can have as a leader. If you're so flawless and your raid leadership so uber, you wouldn't be here asking strangers on the internet on how to beat the easiest raid in this expansion.

First accept that you could be at fault, then go from there. You will likely find that you are doing a lot of things wrong.
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
taken in context, that quote in no way implies that the OP thinks they're flawless, but the fact that they're here asking others for help heavily implies the exact opposite.

The OP was venting frustration at others making bad decisions on the fly when he himself has no trouble with it.

Posts like yours actively bring down the quality of these boards and you should be ashamed of yourself.
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2. We only have 1 reliable healer, and it's a druid. Don't get me wrong, they do really well, but druid healers (in my opinion) are severelly hurt this expansion compared to other healers. We end up having to pug 2 other healers, and I have this feeling like they're not doing that great.


I'm singling this out because it captures something I sensed from the rest of your post. It seems to me like you're operating without a lot of data. As a new raid leader in a new guild with beginning progression, you can't afford that. You need to know twice as much about the encounter as the next guy, and then some. Feelings won't cut it.

You need to have at least a basic understanding of what every role is doing, be it tanks or healers or ranged DPS. You're trying to train up people who might not know how to do their own research -- that puts an additional burden on you to know and guide them. You need to be able to diagnose the cause of each and every wipe. Not "oh, healers failed" but "oh, the tank didn't get the absorb on Feng's wildfire sparks before the transition, so we went into Arcane Velocity with intermittent AoE damage pulses." If you can't do that, or if you can't at least ask the right questions to find that out, then you need to up your game as well.

I'd also recommend you start looking into ways to document your raids for review. World of Logs is a great tool outside of the game. In the game, you might want to look at either Skada or Recount, and DeathNote or a similar death-logging addon. You could also look into a reporting addon like EnsidiaFails, to help your players get this kind of immediate feedback as well.

Start using that data to help your raid improve. Make it specific -- no one will change their behavior if you just say, "Hey, guys, lets work on being better at Jasper Chains." It's human nature to assume that you're always talking about the other guy. When you wipe, look over your death parser and say, "Oh, wow, HealerZ took a ton of damage from MeleeDPS2's Jasper Chains. MeleeDPS2, is there anything we can do to help make it easier for you to get out to HealerZ faster?"

Accountability will make a big difference, and this is one way (though certainly not the only way) to start implementing it. Good luck.

edit: spelling fail
Edited by Anaea on 1/28/2013 5:54 AM PST
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90 Human Warrior
16760
3. We have a set schedule. Saturdays and Sundays at 4 PM server time (The few dedicated raiders we have all came to that agreeable time), but I hate guilds that are all 'If you don't raid, you're out'. What if I have to work on Saturday? What if I have a party to attend? What if I just don't feel like raiding that week? Why should I get removed because of circumstances that aren't in my control?


Now, compare that to:

1. We don't have two reliable tanks. We have one (And even he's getting fed up and looking to swap to DPS), so we have to pug another tank. That could be a major downfall.
2. We only have 1 reliable healer, and it's a druid. Don't get me wrong, they do really well, but druid healers (in my opinion) are severelly hurt this expansion compared to other healers. We end up having to pug 2 other healers, and I have this feeling like they're not doing that great.
3. People can't seem to get down mechanics


You don't have consistency but you won't enforce consistency. Here is the real problem - you are defining yourself as 'casual' with an extreme definition. But there is no real definition of casual. Some people call themselves casual because they only raid 2 nights a week. But they require raiders to practice on dummies to perfect rotations, have full gems, enchants, reforges, have both specs geared for flexibility and show up with 90% attendance.

Then there are people who label themselves hardcore who will never set foot in a heroic mode and may not even clear current content on normal.

Casual is ambiguous and meaningless.

Try to define your guild by what you want to accomplish, not by how you want to accomplish it. You want to get MSV down before 5.2 comes out? Thats not an unreasonable goal. Then make it clear to your guild that, "We will down MSV before 5.2 is released." When they are in agreement on that goal then define the way you will do it, "we need 2 consistent tanks who can communicate, 2-3 healers who can coordinate CD's and work with the tanks and 5-6 dps who can pull X dps on each fight, minimize the damage they take and perform any other special task that comes up due to mechanics." Also set some kind of attendance policy. Even if its, "if you can't make it, please let me know 48 hrs ahead of time so I can arrange to have somebody there in your place.
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90 Orc Warrior
17225
taken in context, that quote in no way implies that the OP thinks they're flawless, but the fact that they're here asking others for help heavily implies the exact opposite.

The OP was venting frustration at others making bad decisions on the fly when he himself has no trouble with it.

Posts like yours actively bring down the quality of these boards and you should be ashamed of yourself.


Asking for help when you don't think you could possibly be the problem isn't exactly asking for help, is it?
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90 Gnome Mage
8035
My guild is extremely casual we raid current content one night a week for 3 hours. Its the night all the people who want to raid can log on so it is what it is. We had alot of roadblocks we're current 4/6

We wiped alot on the first two bosses in MSV because we had to pug because people were behind on getting geared for various reasons

Could of things. While we're casual I am pretty hardcore about gear, enchanting, gemming, optimal reforging, hit cap and everything else. It matters.

Because of hurricane sandy and alot of other issues we had to pug alot (5+ people) and what I found was PUGs were used to being able to stand in stuff and not have to move for chains, worry about phase transitions or pay attention to the mechanics that mattered on normal, that were almost irrelvant in LFR.

I put a goal if ilevel 470.....(we started msv at 460 I think) once everyone in my guild hit that and I wasn't so concerned about gear drops we kept the raid ID open. For US the Dogs were biggest pain. My guild agreed with this completely. The other bosses went down fairly easily (2 nights of work).

When you wipe to the god the assumption is people are standing in stuff and not moving...but you need to figure out is it one person...or many or what. We had one healer who was standing in stuff trying to heal, not helping people and the people who were doing what they were supposed were dying. I used recount to tell me who was doing what when. Also run a combatlog. This way you can review when you have down time to figure out what was going wrong.

In our raids...I will say you died beacuse you sat in pools of goo....we died because people missed going to the spirit realm. You don't have to be mean, but you do need to point out issues.

It is not the end of the world. When we were wiping on the Ultraxio in DS because people couldn't get the stupid button right I gave out gold to the last person standing...it was a motivator. When we're doing bosses now and its the end of the night and we're annoyed We do the last man standing...I usually announce it a few pulls before it makes people focus.

Everything doesn't have to be about a kill, We don't worry about killing the boss until sub 30%, before that is working it down in percentages, working on strats. correcting mistakes, so if are having a night of wipes we still walk away with the idea we progressed.

About recruiting. IMO the guild recruitment forums are useless for casuals, your realm forums and trade macro are better...but thats just me. I also have found the best way to recruit is pugging even though it will make your head hurt. You could also try forming a guild alliance with another guild.

Ok that was a bit much, but hope some of it helps and good luck.
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90 Draenei Shaman
9355
I have the same problem with team consistency. But I do have about 5 people who go almost every time, including a co-raid leader which helps with my own burn-out. But still, taking in new people or people who have not seen a boss very many times hurts our progress. Any time I take someone completely new, or a pug, they just die to mechanics and we 9 man the bosses we have on farm.

Your team actually has a major accomplishment in getting stone guard down. It is an obstacle in coordination that many casual guilds cannot overcome. And in my personal experience, it is not uncommon for tanks to mess up that fight and wipe the raid long after you think you have it on farm. If you are taking new tanks each time, then it is understandable that that fight would still be a struggle every time. Fortunately for me, I am a healer, and I now out-gear the content enough that I can usually heal through many overloads. Feng will similarly be a problem if you are taking a new tank in every time. I'm thinking that if you just have 2 reliable tanks and 1 reliable healer then you will have the first 4 bosses of MsV easily.

Gara'jal also requires coordination. Idk how you've been doing that fight, but this is what we do: We assign 2 dps to go in with the totems. Each of these dps has a substitute dps specifically assigned to them (These substitutes, in turn, have substitutes). If either of the dps who is supposed to go is voodoo'd then it is their personal responsibility to inform their substitute that they need to go in. The two healers are similarly communicating with each other.
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90 Human Warrior
16760
01/29/2013 01:43 PMPosted by Whitebunny
(These substitutes, in turn, have substitutes)


Just to take a little chaos out of your equation - your substitutes do not need subs. They just need to watch for each other. Voodoo will always hit a tank and 2 others on 10 man.

So you have players A and B assigned to go in. Players C and D assigned to back them up respectively.
If voodoo hits A AND B, C and D go in.
If voodoo hits A and random member, then B and C go in.
If voodoo hits A and C (main and his backup), then B and D go in.

4 is the most you ever need to assign to voodoo in 10N.
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90 Draenei Shaman
9355
01/29/2013 01:59 PMPosted by Khahan
(These substitutes, in turn, have substitutes)


Just to take a little chaos out of your equation - your substitutes do not need subs. They just need to watch for each other. Voodoo will always hit a tank and 2 others on 10 man.

So you have players A and B assigned to go in. Players C and D assigned to back them up respectively.
If voodoo hits A AND B, C and D go in.
If voodoo hits A and random member, then B and C go in.
If voodoo hits A and C (main and his backup), then B and D go in.

4 is the most you ever need to assign to voodoo in 10N.

This is actually what we're doing now. But at first it was easier for us to have a straight line of responsibility.
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90 Draenei Paladin
14595
We are also a very casual guild and raid 1 - 2 times / week for about 3 - 4 hours per. We have full cleared MSV and are 3/6 HoF, so nothing spectacular...but not bad for as little as 3 hours of raid time a week.

01/28/2013 07:47 AMPosted by Khahan
I hate guilds that are all 'If you don't raid, you're out'. What if I have to work on Saturday? What if I have a party to attend? What if I just don't feel like raiding that week? Why should I get removed because of circumstances that aren't in my control?


We have a policy that real life ALWAYS takes precedence over WoW. Have to work Saturday? Fine. Attending an event? Fine. Just don't feel like raiding that week? ...NOT fine. I personally can't imagine putting my raid at a disadvantage just because I didn't feel like raiding that week. There is a minimum level of standards you can be at and still be casual.

That being said, we put raids on calendars right after the current one finishes. You are expected to say in or out and stick to it. If something pops up at the last minute, I have my RL's number to text him. And it's absolutely no big deal. Because again, real life > WoW.

The other thing that has helped us immensely is to target a problem and change your strategy relating to THAT issue. As an example, we were having major problems on Ta'yak's second Storm Unleashed. We could get everyone through the first Storm with some CDs, but people dropped like flies having to run back across the room after Ta'yak switches positions. After experimenting with a few things, like saving some CDs for the second run, we came across the strategy of having most dps run back while Ta'yak was at 11% (he flies across the room at 10%). After some tweaking we realized we needed to bump that to 14% and boom...next one was a kill and has mostly been a one-shot to that point.

Stone Guard's cobalt mines...we had an issue with those too. Now, we don't even break them, we just move the dogs up and down the room as appropriate when a lot of them are spawned. We also had an issue with jasper chains, fixed by having the group move in a cluster together.

Figure out what's killing you, and instead of trying to make people better on that strat, change up your strat.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
10105
Hi I tried to read all the responses but I ended up skimming over a few of them. My advise may work or not. From what I can tell there are two main issues

1. You are not enjoying the experience of raiding
2. You would like to succeed in a raid group experience and are seeking advise.

There can be a sense of pressure and urgency to get through raid content. If you aren't in the top raiding guild try not to worry about it. Its about having fun for you not winning a race. When building any team a good leader should say to themselves first who. So get the team assembled first before going into the raid. Look for people who are committed to a similar vision, casual raiding in this case, they will be people who are prepared to do what it takes. Know the fights enchant gear optimise their performance by utilising existing resources in this case sites like icy-veins etc and are prepared to wait to get the job done properly. These people will have like minded friends who they may want to invite to your guild which brings us to the second part of good leadership encouraging people to feel their contribution is valued that this is their project as well as yours. You don't need to yell at people like this because they care about the raid as much as you do. If you yell at them it doesn't matter what you say they hear "I'm not valued" they stop caring about the raids success at that point.

It may take you ages to get a good 10 man team but you want to enjoy the experience don't you. Do other things as a guild or join pug raids in a group of three or something like that. Keep an eye out for guilds or players advertising in trade for multiply players to join a pug raid and whisper them and say " I've got a Druid healer a tank that can dps and whatever else you have. Recruit them into your guild if they are good. Keep your eye out for good players doing stuff for example my son was looking for players for his rated battle ground group. While doing my dailies I came across a player, shadow priest, who organised a group to do quests in that area. I linked them up together. Good players are easy to find they stick out like dogs balls. Get them and value them listen to them and take on board their knowledge and experience.

I saw a tank advertising for a healer to spam heroics (self motivated). I jumped on my Druid and spammed heroics and started to chat with him. He was ready to raid I don't have a team yet. I negotiated a spot for him in another guild. I don't want to hold him back because I value him. His raid leader and guild aren't listening to his advise. Good for me he will leave that guild and join our raid team fully geared because he would rather raid with us because we value him and listen to his advise.

You can do this. I'm not raiding now I'm just building a team I'm working on it with my GM. We're prepared to wait. Fun and success are both things worth waiting for. Good luck.
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90 Human Warrior
16760
For the record, post 33 - that is not my quote Breelyssa is referencing.
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90 Gnome Monk
12835
The first 2 bosses of this tier are extremely dependent on competent tanks who can communicate well, or amazing healers who can cover for everyone's mistakes. Based on that reasoning, I would suggest that you roll as a tank. Being a raid leader as well as a guild leader means that you have to be willing to fill in where you are most needed and that very rarely means going as a dps. Anything I could offer has been touched on briefly or extensively in previous posts so I won't drag this out any longer.

Good luck!
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90 Worgen Druid
4025
We have a near identical story with our guild. We moved into Heart of Fear without getting more then 2/6 on MSV. The first boss is easier to down then Stone Guards. We got really frustrated with 3 hours of wiping in MSV and since most of us are near 480 in gear level we decided we needed a change of scenery.

We will go back to MSV but right now we need something different. The biggest issue we had was dealing with the Sha of Attendance. There were some people who didn't show on some weekend which cause more wipes because we were teaching pugs how to raid. So when they finally showed up they were missing out on the practice. Move into HoF and let your raiders who wan't to try MSV, pug into it for the mean time.
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85 Human Priest
9910
I would agree with you if we weren't way overgeared. That +160 enchant is already in place by the great gear we have, unless you're telling me iLvl 475+ and full enchants is the minimum needed for successful raiding on Normal mode MSV 10 man, at which i'm going to have to rub my chin and tell my guild mates.

Sure you may be overgeared for a decent guild and decent players but in your own words "you are terrible" so to compensate a lil for how bad you are gem and enchant... EVERY raider should be gemmed and chanted. And as a GM or RL you are setting a bad example.
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