We like.... (except when it is Moonkins)

96 Night Elf Druid
19270
This is Owlcapwn again (changed servers, and old name was taken...)

After making many a well discussed threads on Moonkin PVE, and replying in quite a few others myself, I'm taking a last grasp effort at hoping to grab some dev attention. This one will be a jab below the belt, but I guess desperate times call for desperate measures.

I'll probably get flamed for using the word desperate, but when we get less than 10 total posts about moonkins since Beta (that's about 8-10 months), it sort of becomes desperate in my books.

A. We like the new talents to be a meaningful choice, except when it comes to Moonkins...
About 90-99% of the PVE raiding moonkins have the exact same talent choices. It goes like this:
Tier 1: Well diversified, mixed uses - I've seen many people taking just about all of these
Tier 2: NS / Tier 3: Typhoon / Tier 4: Incarnation / Tier 5: Vortex / Tier 6: NV

So clearly, there's a good amount of choice because so many people are taking such a large variety of options!

B. We like Major Glyphs to allow customization of spells based on player choice and situation, except when it comes to Moonkins...
With a grand total of ZERO balance glyphs that interact with any of our main damage spells (no, hurricane isn't one of our main damage spells), we've trying to ask for an answer since early Beta on this one as to why blizzard feels moonkins are a pitch perfect spec that don't need any spell augmentations.

C. We like players to have fun, the game to feel evolved and change over time, except when it comes to Moonkins...
Still the least interactive spells of just about all specs. I'm playing my moonkin almost identically as I've played since Eclipse was first introduced (i.e. long durations of wraths, then starfires). Hurricane + Astral storm are the spells in the game that I know of (from caster DPS perspective) that are still behaving the same way a vanilla AE spell behaves - target reticule, channeled, no other interaction. *Maybe* mage spell blizzard functions the same way? At least it has a baked in slow.

Here's how our spells interact with each other: DoT crits can proc starsurge, spell crits extend duration of Moonfire or Sunfire. Entering Lunar Eclipse resets CD of Starfall.
That's it.

D. We don't like players to re-learn their class mid-way through the expansion (re: blanket silence reversals), except when it comes to Moonkins....
Ever since the T14 set bonuses were announced, almost every good moonkin, long term testers, theorycrafters, etc etc, said that it was a really bad idea to have a set bonus that changes our rotation. We got zero replies from devs as to why they felt necessary to bake in a rotation change into a set bonus.

So first, I'm learning my rotation which is already VERY challenging to make the most out of (Cyous can tell you more about this - he's far more eloquent than I am). Then it changes (for the better!) after I get my 4-PC. Now when I upgrade my tiers again in T15, I have to go back to the previous rotation.... Yup, that's not multiple standards at all. Who knows, they'll probably do it again in T16?

Please devs, I genuinely BEG you to give us a response on the numerous threads that have been created, and the overall neglect that your balance druid community feels. We still don't know why you need to break the synergy between Incarnation + NV for balance druids because of feral druids having overly high burst. We still don't know why you make the rotation so drastically unforgiving that even the slightest bit of error can throw you back a very long way.

And whether you like it or not, giving critter frogs a nice new model before moonkins is such a kick to the balls that you cannot imagine. We've been asking for a new model update for over 3 years now.

But as explained, this is going to be the last thread that I make before I too decide to throw in the towel like many of your old moonkins already have.
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90 Undead Warlock
5955
Warlock Glyphs are pretty terrible too.
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96 Night Elf Druid
19270
01/27/2013 08:05 PMPosted by Grads
Warlock Glyphs are pretty terrible too.

You have glyphs at least right? The only glyph that Moonkins have for ANY of their DPS spells is: Glyph of Hurricane - reduces speed by 50% of the enemies affected.

For the spells that make up for 98-100% of our DPS for any given encounter: Moonfire, Sunfire, Wrath, Starfire, Starsurge, Starfall - there's no glyphs at all.

We've been begging why this anomaly exists - from about ~ 2 weeks into Beta, haven't even had a single blue even respond to that question.
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90 Undead Warlock
11815
Got a 4th spec, they figured that was enough druid development. Probably not that simple, but probably close to that line of logic.

Shame, since I really want to play my druid some more.
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90 Undead Warlock
6315
Oh, moonkins... my poor, poor moonkins.

It's sad, but I'm content with the fact that I didn't stick with the spec for this long.
Edited by Mehvil on 1/27/2013 9:01 PM PST
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90 Troll Druid
11620
01/27/2013 06:33 PMPosted by Wispurrs
So first, I'm learning my rotation which is already VERY challenging to make the most out of (Cyous can tell you more about this - he's far more eloquent than I am).

It's not hard in the sense that it requires a robot to play, but all the little nuances about squeezing out a little damage here and there. Depending on the encounter, our Eclipse cycling might go from 20sec, or 60sec. You basically relearn your specc and rotation every encounter.

There are too many details I can ramble about, but that sums up the majority of it.
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96 Night Elf Druid
19270
01/28/2013 01:52 AMPosted by Cyous
You basically relearn your specc and rotation every encounter.


Which is what I can probably never really do - hence I don't score as high as you do. But seriously, even AFTER doing that - an equally well played lock / mage will beat us on the meters by a good margin. That's what makes the spec so frustrating to play.

I don't mind a challenge if I'm getting aptly rewarded for it. But with the level of micromanagement required, it's still not as rewarding.
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90 Tauren Druid
14530
At the start of MoP I decided that eclipse just wasn't fun and switched to my spriest. The shadow rotation and gameplay is ssssoooo much more fun than balance. The whole wrath wrath wrath wrath wrath wrath starfire starfire starfire starfire starfire thing is really boring. And the way you have to micromanage eclipse at high levels is frustrating. Maybe some people like how balance plays, but I can't imagine that there are a lot of them.
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90 Tauren Druid
7395
01/28/2013 09:12 AMPosted by Moohoof
the way you have to micromanage eclipse at high levels is frustrating. Maybe some people like how balance plays, but I can't imagine that there are a lot of them.


even at the peak of micromanagement, moonkin dps comes out much lower than other comparable rdps. plus it's really tacky and finicky, a player like me who's fairly new to boomkin needs pretty much an entire patch to perfect the rotation one way.....just to have a new encounter that asks for a completely different rotation.

<----------seriously considering just quitting on Moonkins and rolling feral dps.
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100 Pandaren Monk
12420
i mained a balance druid from the start of wrath to the start of MoP. I couldn't put up with the extremely slow cast times, it was making natures grace very stressful trying to re-apply dots and still try to make it to the other end of eclipse on time.
movement is a real killer, trying to move a little in between GCD's applying dots or starsurge, trying to stand still as much as possible for nukes. not so many patchwerk style bosses anymore

like the others said there is a lot...... a lot to micromanage and planning ahead to try and squeeze out every bit of damage, and if it was worth it in the end it wouldn't be so horrible, but even if you do everything 99% correct your still probably going to be middle of the pack in damage

i don't think blizzard responds a lot to moonkin help threads because honestly i dont' think they know what they're doing with them. everythings changed so much and probably only the real solution is another complete re-work of the spec.

there is two things tho that blizz fixed for mookins at the start of MoP that are really great ideas, starfall cd reset uppon hitting lunar(like it) and celestial alignment (but i wish you could pick which eclipse it brought u too first)
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90 Troll Mage
6510
I'm going to let you in on a little secret. Blizzard doesn't care... The Mage community really wants Fire to be the spec of choice. But we are forced to raid as Arcane. We are told daily fire is viable and the dmg is on par with Arcane. We know better, but that's there story and there sticking to it. Blizzard really can't balance the game and keep it interesting for all. Your either OP or weak... Just deal with.
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90 Worgen Druid
6550
01/29/2013 06:31 AMPosted by Tigolcrities
I'm going to let you in on a little secret. Blizzard doesn't care... The Mage community really wants Fire to be the spec of choice. But we are forced to raid as Arcane. We are told daily fire is viable and the dmg is on par with Arcane. We know better, but that's there story and there sticking to it. Blizzard really can't balance the game and keep it interesting for all. Your either OP or weak... Just deal with.


Fire mage is just TOO crit dependant. IMO they went the wrong way about "fixing" them. They need to just redesign fire spec instead of the constant nerf, buff, nerf, buff cycle that occurs due primarily to crit scaling.
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90 Troll Druid
14580
Fire is hardly RNG anymore.

Get 1 crit

Inferno Blast.

Oh look, Pyroblast! Soooooo RNG.
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90 Human Warlock
17825
For the spells that make up for 98-100% of our DPS for any given encounter: Moonfire, Sunfire, Wrath, Starfire, Starsurge, Starfall - there's no glyphs at all.

Um, hi, you know those things called Prime Glyphs that they removed from EVERYONE? Yeah, those are the kind of glyphs you are describing. There are few glyphs remaining that affect 'core' rotation spells for anyone, and where they do exist, they tend to act as toggles for minor pvp utility effects.
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96 Night Elf Druid
19270
Um, hi, you know those things called Prime Glyphs that they removed from EVERYONE? Yeah, those are the kind of glyphs you are describing. There are few glyphs remaining that affect 'core' rotation spells for anyone, and where they do exist, they tend to act as toggles for minor pvp utility effects.


Glyph of Everlasting Allfiction - longer dots, lower dmg
Glyph of Burning Embers / Soul Shards - increases by 1 of each type
Glyph of Soul Consumption - for levelling
Imp Swarm, Demon Training etc...

But that's for pures. Here's a list of the ROTATION spell glyphs (not including all - just the ones you're likely to see making up for 90-100% of the total damage done):

Let's look at caster hybrids:
Priest (Shadow only):
Mind Blast - crits cause a root
Mind Spike - reduces cast time of mind bast by 50/100% on stack of 2
SW: Death - allows usage before sub 20% hp
Mind Flay - reversal of snare into a speed boost - kinda crappy (perhaps) but still there at least

Shaman (Ele):
Flame Shock - increases duration, reduces damage
Unleashed Lightning - 5% slower Lightning bolt, castable while moving
Fire Ele Totem - reduces cd + duration (faster elementals on multi-burst required fights)
Telluric Currents - restores mana on crit, possibly enhance one - I'm not sure (can't filter by spec on Wowhead)
Chain lightning - 2 more targets, 10% less initial

Now look at Balance druids:
Glyph of Hurricane: Hurricane / Astral Storm slows the movement speed by 50% of affected targets.

That's it.... Want me to list more for you?
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90 Night Elf Druid
8480
Been playing Boomkin since BC... never before have I been so frustrated with balance druids.
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90 Troll Druid
8670
Just keep NV the same, that's all I ask. Extras would be... Make shrooms worth casting over hurricane (seriously who thought hurricane was a good idea) and make nature's grace be capable of being extended when we're forced to camp one eclipse for aoe.
Edited by Halfatree on 1/30/2013 9:03 PM PST
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90 Undead Priest
10965
01/29/2013 09:39 PMPosted by Wispurrs
Telluric Currents - restores mana on crit, possibly enhance one - I'm not sure (can't filter by spec on Wowhead)


is a resto thing i belive since TC was a resto talent field high end talent field made TC worth casting for mana regen lol:P
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