We like.... (except when it is Moonkins)

90 Undead Mage
11870
02/20/2013 11:24 AMPosted by Cyous
During PTR testing (537 ilvl), I felt overpowered (Recount told me I was overpowered). Just thought you would like to know.


Don't worry, they'll fix that in a hotfix if it doesn't get fixed by the end of the ptr.

I was given the option of moonkin or mage for MoP. I chose mage (ha! silly me!). The complexity of a well played moonkin is absurd in relation to the damage they do (well played should be much much higher). I'd rather spend more of the fight watching mechanics than trying to guess what will happen 6 seconds from now. For those who play a moonkin and are good at it, you will continue to have my respect.
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90 Troll Druid
14580
02/20/2013 11:43 AMPosted by Howmanylichs
Don't worry, they'll fix that in a hotfix if it doesn't get fixed by the end of the ptr.

They'll probably nerf Lei Shen's Unerring Vision to the point of uselessness (like it only effecting Direct Damage) ~ Good things we have 3 very good caster trinkets this tier.
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100 Troll Druid
14630
02/20/2013 12:01 PMPosted by Cyous
Don't worry, they'll fix that in a hotfix if it doesn't get fixed by the end of the ptr.

They'll probably nerf Lei Shen's Unerring Vision to the point of uselessness (like it only effecting Direct Damage) ~ Good things we have 3 very good caster trinkets this tier.


That would be better. Personally I wouldn't like to see another situation of X spec balanced around Y item. Had enough with DTR.
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96 Night Elf Druid
19270
02/20/2013 12:01 PMPosted by Cyous
They'll probably nerf Lei Shen's Unerring Vision to the point of uselessness (like it only effecting Direct Damage) ~ Good things we have 3 very good caster trinkets this tier.


We've always been balanced around certain items - be it tier, or trinkets. Remember IDS? Still, I feel that they're completely clueless in the direction to take boomkins in, so they just keep adding bandaid buffs.

I can recall Wrath/SS getting buffed by various % points a good 4-5 times already. I think it was 2 times in LK, once in BC (right @ the start of the 2.4 patch), once or twice in Cata. Now in MoP. This is evidence that suggests that they don't know how to fix it.

Their talent design for moonkins is yet another issue. I know you're awesome Cyous - and you can pull off numbers that most moonkins cannot. I applaud you for that. But at the same time, I really think that if you played a mage or lock at the same level, you'll be going for many top ranked parses on WoL.

That's the main reason why I'm giving my monk more attention - the effort:reward ratio is far better on the monk than my moonkin. Plus, when I'm getting old, I don't want to stress myself out for being competitive - I like to play casually, but I gotta be spot on perfect to compete with the moonkin. That's something that I suppose I can't do any more.
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If they don't do something about lei shen's it's going to be mandatory for rbg's like cunning was in s11.
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100 Troll Druid
14630
Their talent design for moonkins is yet another issue.


It's something I've been thinking about... How does the talent tree meshes with the design of the spec? Or it's just some added bonus for using the trees and the spec should work well without them (disregarding numbers, ofc)?

Kinda philosophical question I know, but still I consider it relevant if we are looking for some QoL.
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96 Night Elf Druid
19270

(snip)
We’re trying to move away from very long cooldowns, especially those without a lot of visual noise (e.g. a 1 min Army of the Dead would be pretty annoying to see, but Recklessness is pretty chill)....


Heart of the Wild - 6 min CD, doesn't work well in most situations, and impossibly difficult to balance around. It is great for 1) Guardians -> 2) Restos -> 3) Cats / Moonkins. For cats / moonkins - it is just about worthless considering the other talents on the tier.

Why is it that we've heared absolutely nothing about this? DoC is another snowflake when it comes to your design. All other specs, you want to focus on damage dealing for DPS specs, Healing for heal specs, and tanking for the prot specs. Yet with DoC, that same philosophy is thrown out the window, leaving most druids with just one good option on what is considered to be the pinnacle in our talent trees.

NV is good in almost all situations
HoTW is good for some specs, in some situations, and bad in others
DoC is extremely situational, and even so, it requires robotic finesse to bring it up to par with NV or exceed it in those rare situations.

Can we at least get a communique on what your design intent is on those 3 talents?
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90 Troll Druid
14580
02/22/2013 06:13 PMPosted by Wispurrs
Can we at least get a communique on what your design intent is on those 3 talents?

"Hybridy" feelng, of course.

NV worked out well.
HOTW is too situational (at best) and impractical for DPS in a Raid Environment.
DOC is never used as intended and is not used to off-heal group members (because it requires almost 0 downtime, it's practically viable only for self-healing.)
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90 Night Elf Druid
6280
Can we at least get a communique on what your design intent is on those 3 talents?

"Hybridy" feelng, of course.

NV worked out well.
HOTW is too situational (at best) and impractical for DPS in a Raid Environment.
DOC is never used as intended and is not used to off-heal group members (because it requires almost 0 downtime, it's practically viable only for self-healing.)

mmmm BLIZZPHAIL

HotW actually can out perform NV on a lot of fights, but anything with a burn phase NV usually takes the cake.

As for DoC....blizz....failed...so hard....the guy/girl who thought that up...SPANK HIM/HER.
Edited by Nexian on 2/22/2013 8:37 PM PST
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96 Night Elf Druid
19270
02/22/2013 08:36 PMPosted by Nexian
HotW actually can out perform NV on a lot of fights


Only on fights where you get more than 1 use out of it.

Plus, the fact that NV synergizes with Inc (at least atm) + CA for Moonkins - it's definitely a lot better. HOTW is good only for Cats / Bears in terms of usage.

Restos should not be DPS'ing for 90 seconds in a 7 min fight even.
Edited by Wispurrs on 2/22/2013 8:55 PM PST
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90 Troll Druid
14580
02/22/2013 08:36 PMPosted by Nexian
HotW actually can out perform NV on a lot of fights, but anything with a burn phase NV usually takes the cake.

HOTW Tranq does slightly more healing than NV x2.

Factor in ANY damage amp encounter (Elegon, Amber-Shaper, etc) and NV dominates.
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96 Night Elf Druid
19270
02/22/2013 10:20 PMPosted by Cyous
HotW actually can out perform NV on a lot of fights, but anything with a burn phase NV usually takes the cake.

HOTW Tranq does slightly more healing than NV x2.

Factor in ANY damage amp encounter (Elegon, Amber-Shaper, etc) and NV dominates.


Not just damage amp - movements too. How often do you actually get to free-cast for 45 seconds to actually make full use of HOTW?
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90 Troll Druid
14580
02/23/2013 12:04 AMPosted by Wispurrs
Not just damage amp - movements too. How often do you actually get to free-cast for 45 seconds to actually make full use of HOTW?

As a moonkin, it's only good for 6sec (Tranq channel)
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96 Night Elf Druid
19270
02/23/2013 12:09 AMPosted by Cyous
As a moonkin, it's only good for 6sec (Tranq channel)


Oh I agree. Just even for restos and cats - when do you actually get the time to free cast wrath or dps for 45 secs - considering you're giving up 20% better of your primary role every 3 mins?

I have qualms with the talent as a whole because it's very poorly designed.
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90 Troll Druid
15025
02/23/2013 02:42 AMPosted by Wispurrs
As a moonkin, it's only good for 6sec (Tranq channel)


Oh I agree. Just even for restos and cats - when do you actually get the time to free cast wrath or dps for 45 secs - considering you're giving up 20% better of your primary role every 3 mins?

I have qualms with the talent as a whole because it's very poorly designed.


To be fair when i use it in guardian spec, it can help with heals at certain stages or it can be used to dps when i'm not required to tank at a certain moment in time.
But, yes, pretty useless as moonkin, i'd much rather have my ghetto tranq and NV than a better tranq every 6 mins.
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96 Night Elf Druid
19270
02/23/2013 04:26 AMPosted by Rejuvinated
To be fair when i use it in guardian spec, it can help with heals at certain stages or it can be used to dps when i'm not required to tank at a certain moment in time.


02/22/2013 06:13 PMPosted by Wispurrs
Heart of the Wild - 6 min CD, doesn't work well in most situations, and impossibly difficult to balance around. It is great for 1) Guardians -> 2) Restos -> 3) Cats / Moonkins. For cats / moonkins - it is just about worthless considering the other talents on the tier.


It has been good for Guardians in PVE and Restos in PVP. But there are 2 others specs to this class, and talent trees were supposed to be roughly equal.
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90 Troll Druid
14580
I love this website. World of Wowgraphs.

http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/statspve-talents-11-1-0-0-0-0-0-0.html
PVE: Druid: Balance: Talents & Glyphs
"Last Database Update : 18 Feb 2013 - Players with 2/16 or more bosses killed in heroic mode (T14) - 522,868 guilds and 32,609,663 players in the database "
Heart of the Wild (8.39%)
Dream of Cenarius (0.37%)
Nature's Vigil (91.24%)


I'm willing to bet that DOC will be LESS POPULAR in 5.2 ~ players will shift to HOTW from NV due to the change, but NV will probably be 85%+.

Maybe DOC should get another look.

(Just as an extra, I have not seen any top tier players use DOC -- nor consider it.)
Edited by Cyous on 2/23/2013 8:39 PM PST
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90 Troll Druid
17085
DoC will become relatively worse for moonkin in 5.2 with the loss of the 4p set bonus additional DoT time. From my testing on the PTR I was able to make some use of the ability combined with NS-HT for the Unerring Vision proc, but due to the variability of the proc, was never able to post numbers close to either NV or even the passive stats of HotW.

Part of the long standing issue with HotW versus NV, at least as I see it, is the lack of mastery interaction in off roles. Mastery for mooncat is 100% useless, as it is for other specs. Part of the issue with the talant in general is it did not provide all of the abilities to the off specs that are required for them. That led to the abnormally high output of some specific abilities (ferocious bite, feral wrath) due to the very high co-coefficients associated with them. This would not have been the case if heart was balanced around ferals equipping caster weapons/moonkin equipping melee weapons.

I personally enjoy the variability of the mooncat play style, as it feeds into the idea of druid being a shifty class. Preventing the boost of weapon swaps, and adding in (somehow) a scaling value for mastery would massively improve this one option from a dps perspective.
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96 Night Elf Druid
19270
Warlock Glyphs are pretty terrible too.


Pally glyphs are perty bad as well, you are not alone in this mr druid.


Do you people even read what we say? I'm not saying whether we have good glyphs or bad ones. I'm saying we have NONE. Read it again....

For a given fight, the majority (i.e. 95%-99%) of Moonkin damage comes from:
Wrath, Starfire, Moonfire, Sunfire, Starfall, Starsurge.

The only exception is Wind Lord, since we just spam hurricane while sitting in Solar.

For these above spells, we don't have a single glyph at all. Ret's have some glyphs (not saying good or bad) - which gives you some of the following options:

DS healing you for 5% (PVP)
Battle Healer - splash healing in raids
Mass Exo - additional damage in AE heavy fight(s)
Holy Wrath - mini-execute (not sure if this is a ret or a prot glyph - I can't filter them out on wowhead)

Again, I'm not what's arguing whether they're good or bad... I'm saying Moonkins have no glyphs at all. Seriously none. And Moonkins are the only druid spec that gets this treatment - resto has plenty of glyphs, so do our cats and bears.
Edited by Wispurrs on 2/24/2013 6:58 PM PST
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