Out of Mana Podcast Episode 3

90 Draenei Shaman
11700
01/31/2013 12:00 PMPosted by Aoz
Could you guys do a part where you teach people how to theorycraft? I'm trying to cook up numbers to predict my healing, but whenever I go to WoW Head to look up formulas, it's set for level 90 toons... but I don't have one because this is my highest level.


I think Wowhead's slider underneath the spells - that allows you to change the level of the spell and thus see the equation that determines its healing for your level - is a bit broken now. Ordinarily that slider would be all the way to the right when displaying level 90 info, and then you could slide it to the left to see a lower level's equation.

If you just want spell equations, though, here's what I do:

Step 1) Get naked and remove any buffs
Step 2) Write down your spellpower
Step 3) Cast the spell
Step 4) Write down how much it healed for (divide by 2 if it was a crit)
Step 5) Put on a weapon
Steps 6-8) Repeat Steps 2-4
Step 9) Put on a couple items with Int on them (but nothing with Int procs if I can avoid it!)
Steps 10-12) Repeat Steps 2-4
Step 13) Put aaaalllll my gear back on
Step 14-16) Repeat Steps 2-4
Step 17) Plot a graph with spellpower on the X axis and amount healed on the Y axis. Get a trendline. In the format of "Y = mX + b", b is the Base Healing and m is the spellpower coefficient for your spell.

Voila!

To now use this equation to tell you how much your spell will heal for on *average*, you need to factor in your crit chance, any crit-increasing effects (e.g. Meta gem, obviously not a concern for you at lower levels), any procs that your spells might have, whatever effects your Mastery may have ... it gets a bit complicated. :)

I had to do this a lot in the early days of the beta to figure out monk spell equations, but for the most part - when it works - Wowhead is an excellent resource.

[/end huge off-topic post]
Apologies if that was out of line, OOM people ;)

I'm excited to hear this week's episode, it should be good to listen to while mercilessly abusing Spirit Shell in my alt raid :D
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17040
I'd like to see some discussion about what this guy is saying about Spirit and healing in general:

http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/2012/10/08/why-more-spirit-is-not-the-answer-to-your-healing-problems/


I know a bunch of people (Kaels included) loved that article, but I found it to be dumb, I'm sorry. Maybe it's just because I healed on a shaman, so there is (1) the whole MTT thing and (2) the fact that we have increased spell size not only from intellect but also from mastery.

But this part of the article bugs me:

Let’s work an example: as a Druid, let’s say I used a Spirit flask, 1000 Spirit. Over the course of, let’s say, 3 minutes of healing, that 1000 Spirit will get me just over 20000 mana. Or, roughly enough to cast 2 Rejuvenations. So that’s the first step. In my head, I’ve relabeled Flask of Falling Leaves as “Flask of 2 Rejuvs.” Suddenly it does not seem very compelling.


Well then, since 1000 spirit provides only two rejuvs, let's just go ahead and reforge out of 1000 more spirit then, that's only two more rejuvs. Hey, what the hell, let's go down from 9K to 5K spirit, that's only a total of 8 rejuvs!

The guy who wrote this is Hamlet of Elitist Jerks. Maybe he used to raid in other expansions, but honestly, he doesn't appear to raid very much at all now. He has a handful of MSV normal kills, and one kill of Vizier Zor'lok on normal. Nothing else. It is easy to tell people they don't need much spirit when you aren't actually tackling the content.

Edit: He also appears to be running with 4887 spirit. He is logged out as resto, but who knows, maybe he is usually boomkin.
Edited by Taymage on 1/31/2013 4:36 PM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
11700
I share your reservations with that article, Taymage, and I was also not impressed. I don't think you can make those sorts of sweeping generalisations from just having played a single class through (at the time he wrote it) heroic dungeons and LFR.

I wanted to write a rebuttal on my site but... time, and stuff.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9855
Taking both tay and Dayani's considerations, and my own (cause I read both posts) I do think this will be a good topic for a future podcast
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90 Orc Shaman
HC
15750
That article is idiotic, not much more to say about it. Some right, too much wrong and not enough considered.
Edited by Sensations on 1/31/2013 6:42 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12265
But it’s not, and in any case, if you haven’t tried to do any math, you really have nothing to contribute on which option is more likely to be more useful.


This is the part that really gets me..

How anyone that hasn't done the content can make such a claim just... blows my mind.

There's a lot more to healing than the math, and he clearly isn't even putting his own math into practice.
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Yeah, I have a lot of reservations about what he's saying too, which is why I think the discussion would be interesting.

The one about spirit is a little ... narrow, in that it doesn't generalize well to other classes at all, and the only useful takeaway is really his framework of thinking about mana. The second one I linked is where he talks about "how he thinks about healing" which may have more common ground to build a discussion on.

You don't need to love the cook to talk about the food.
Edited by Heartsings on 1/31/2013 5:38 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14860
The main problem with the article is that he basically shoves aside the problems with overhealing on the basis that they are based on "feelings" and aren't quantitative. He's right, in that spirit is hugely overvalued by the community (ignore my gear, I'm lazy on farm), but without considering the role of overhealing, he's going too far in the opposite direction.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14155
Another problem with math re: spirit is that, to a certain extent, more spirit gets better the more you have. The longer it takes you to run oom, the longer you're benefiting from that mp5 before needing it.
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90 Tauren Druid
18155
But this part of the article bugs me:

Let’s work an example: as a Druid, let’s say I used a Spirit flask, 1000 Spirit. Over the course of, let’s say, 3 minutes of healing, that 1000 Spirit will get me just over 20000 mana. Or, roughly enough to cast 2 Rejuvenations. So that’s the first step. In my head, I’ve relabeled Flask of Falling Leaves as “Flask of 2 Rejuvs.” Suddenly it does not seem very compelling.


Well then, since 1000 spirit provides only two rejuvs, let's just go ahead and reforge out of 1000 more spirit then, that's only two more rejuvs. Hey, what the hell, let's go down from 9K to 5K spirit, that's only a total of 8 rejuvs!

To be fair, the entire article is about food and flasks, where the tradeoff (1:1 Spirit for Int) does make sense to examine critically before assuming that at lower levels of gear, you want to stack Spi at the expense of Int. In the article, he agrees that reforging and gemming is quite different, especially with the change to secondary stats on gems.

And druids do operate a bit differently from other classes. I still run with what most people would probably consider to be a low level of Spirit on this toon (unlike my paladin). I find that as long as I am smart about spell choices, such as not spamming Rejuve when the damage pattern doesn't call for it, as well as the use of my mana management tools, such as not automatically casting Regrowth on the tank the second OoC procs because a boss mechanic that will require a bigger heal is coming up soon, I am fine.

I think one reason why people are turned off by druid healing this patch is that to be effective, you have to think a bit harder than the lolrejuvespam it was historically. I believe this will be made even more challenging/interesting with the changes in the next patch.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9855
WE go Live tonight at 7pm est, at twitch.tv/oompodcast.

If you have any topics you think pertain to Healing in 5.2 or any topics you want to hear in future Episodes, please let us know.
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90 Draenei Priest
6975
I'll confirm what Dayani said about wowhead tooltips being off; I did some basic calcs on unbuffed PoM a few weeks ago that were ~33% higher than my ingame buffed numbers.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9855
We're going live in about 4 1/2 hours. Any last minute quests, tweet them to @oompodcast
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11780
Show in an hour and a half :D
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9855
Live now Gang
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10380
link please :)

edit: nvm, found it. For others looking:
http://www.twitch.tv/oompodcast
Edited by Kaels on 2/1/2013 4:07 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9855
twitch.tv/oompodcast
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9855
Thanks to everyone who tuned in. The Show will be on Youtube and Itunes soon
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Yes, thanks to you all. :)

<3
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