I love Mistweaver monks, but...

100 Pandaren Monk
5085
n theory, yes, you would get a higher HPM out of Soothing > Enveloping. In practice, this requires that Enveloping not result in high amounts of overheal. Heals are too strong and 90% of the fight your raid will be getting topped off consistently makes EM hard to use effectively. There are still times that you get enough of the effect to be worthwhile, but it's hard to have that consistently without it being mostly overheal. You would probably get more effective healing by using the chi generated with an uplift.


If you were actually doing difficult content that required big heals on the tank you wouldn't say stuff like this. Yes, Enveloping Mists isn't very useful in an LFR group with 3 Disc Priests and no one taking any damage. If your tank just got smashed by adds on Shek'zeer or is getting mangled (again by adds) on Wind Lord, for instance, you'll be much happier with Enveloping Mists. Overhealing is operator error.

These are problems. You shouldn't be SOL at any standard healing situation which is my whole point. To ignore these problems is a huge deal and that's all the problem of monk healing design. When you put so much emphasis on specific spells, it causes these gaps.


Yes, the spec isn't perfect. This is the only problem I see and it isn't a very big one (sometimes ReM timing doesn't line up in our favor, but most of the time it does, and when it doesn't we have SCK, Revival and also other healers). Just because there's one problem I would like to see fixed doesn't mean the sky is falling.

Superhero, despite your last line it sounds like you just don't like how the class plays (your comments about ReM and TFT). I didn't like how Priests heal, so I swapped to Monk, and I'm a lot happier. Maybe the class just isn't for you?

Do you think that fistweaving should be a standalone healing style?
Or do you think it's role is only to be a secondary to a straight casted healing style?


Since its inclusion, Blizzard has been pretty clear that DPS-healing (like Atonement or Fistweaving) should be secondary. I think it should stay that way, or you're just really playing a DPS that happens to have healing meters instead of DPS meters out.

Chi generation is incredibly unreliable.
Chi gen is fine. You're supposed to generate it preemptively and use it when it would be most effective, not sit around casting Healing Sphere and then complain you can't use your Chi spells when the big damage goes out. If you need more or screwed up, there's always Jab.

Regarding Chi Torpedo, I have the same feeling that I do with casted healing spheres, I don't know how anyone in their right mind can see this is a well designed heal. It really feels like healing on a monk is somehow making novelty spells into core mechanics when it comes to using these as a core part of the arsenal. The simple fact that people are choosing these abilities over things like our tier 30 abilities is further to my point.


Chi torpedo is probably a lot better in 25 mans. Its. Free. Healing. That is amazing, full stop. One awesome thing about Healing Spheres is they only fire off when someone actually needs the healing.

Renewing Mist is probably one of the most powerful tools in the game. You can disagree with me all you want, but it won't make you right. I have -yet- to find a situation where I couldn't get an RM to go where I wanted it to (disregarding when RM was bugged. That was hell.)


This is my experience as well, for the most part. There's just been a few times that for whatever reason, the time where my TFT'd ReMs start falling off (or ReM never spread thanks to the raid being spread out too far). For instance, for whatever reason, on Elegon our kills of the adds (and thus, annihilations) always ended up happening when I only had 4 or 5 ReMs out, even though I had been casting ReM on CD the whole fight. I tried moving TFT around but didn't have much success. There's been a few other times that has happened. Not many, but a few.
Edited by Ramayana on 2/1/2013 5:18 AM PST
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100 Pandaren Monk
5085
this ramanaya guy must be joking. first he says we should be using surging mist as part of our rotation, rather than as a last ditch emergency heal, and then he says that fistweaving isnt intended to be our main mode of healing. then why, genius, does it take me 12 casts of surging mist to go oom, and why are monks considered melee when it comes to boss mechanics? why is jab for chi the most mana efficient way to heal?


Go read Velen's spreadsheet. Jab isn't our most efficient Chi generator, just our most reliable. Jab is sort of the Greater Heal of Chi generators - its reliable (read: useful for big numbers), but it is also moderately expensive (not as expensive as Surging Mists, but not as cheap as CJL or Soothing Mists).

I got a Wind Bomb on Wind Lord the other day. I'm not sure we're actually always categorized as melee (even if we're at range).

I never said Surging Mists should be part of our rotation. I just said it sounds like people take it off their bars, rely on Healing Spheres, and then wonder why their ST healing and Chi gen is crap. It is situational, but useful.

enveloping mists is strong, but it is not going to save anyone from a high amount of burst damage.


The Soothing Mist synergy and efficient applications of Surging Mist certainly will. Cmon, we have a relatively efficient, spammable, INSTANT CAST nuke. If someone needs saving, we can do it (at the cost of large amounts of mana).

this brings me to my next point, which has already been stated many times. monks look great on the meters, sure. but what difference do they actually make when it comes to raid healing? if i surging misted every raid member that was about to die due to a burst of raid damage, id be oom 2 minutes in. revival is a 3 minute cooldown. life cocoon is a 2 minute cooldown. us monks are here to soften the edges of raid damage. but really, when it comes down to it, dont count on us to save the outcome of the raid when stuff goes bad


This is just what HOT healers are like. Druids are similar in design. HOT healers are the stabilizers - we go out there, put out big numbers in small increments and stabilize raiders while other healers bring people up to safe levels. Healing meters matter. Not in the same way DPS meters do, but they matter. Tranq and Divine Hymn are 3 min CDs too.
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100 Human Monk
11910
If you were actually doing difficult content that required big heals on the tank you wouldn't say stuff like this. Yes, Enveloping Mists isn't very useful in an LFR group with 3 Disc Priests and no one taking any damage. If your tank just got smashed by adds on Shek'zeer or is getting mangled (again by adds) on Wind Lord, for instance, you'll be much happier with Enveloping Mists. Overhealing is operator error.


So, you are saying that because it's useful in 2 encounters, then it's a well designed spell and it's a core part of the monk healing arsenal?

Secondly, address the topic and stop bashing me personally, it's not getting you anywhere. Considering you've killed all of 2 heroic bosses, then it wouldn't be something that I'd be bragging about or trying to hold over my head. This is why I used to post on my non-raiding character just to avoid people ignoring the discussion and focusing on the WRONG things.

Yes, the spec isn't perfect. This is the only problem I see and it isn't a very big one (sometimes ReM timing doesn't line up in our favor, but most of the time it does, and when it doesn't we have SCK, Revival and also other healers). Just because there's one problem I would like to see fixed doesn't mean the sky is falling.


Did I say the sky is falling? Did I say that somehow monks aren't able to perform their role? No, understand the discussion. I'm saying that monks have serious gaps in their healing tools and I'm pointing out what those gaps are. Just because we're able to hit certain HPS numbers doesn't mean that their aren't problems with the class design.

Superhero, despite your last line it sounds like you just don't like how the class plays (your comments about ReM and TFT). I didn't like how Priests heal, so I swapped to Monk, and I'm a lot happier. Maybe the class just isn't for you?

Yes, I don't like the massive dependence on ReM and I feel that TFT is a boring spell because it's only used for uplift. That doesn't mean I somehow hate the class. It means that I don't like one aspect of the class which is why I'm here discussing it. Is that hard to understand? I've been raiding since vanilla and healing since BC, mained a holy pally and a priest, now a monk. We were setting realm firsts all through Wrath. It's not like I just showed up one day and started complaining about something I don't have any experience with.

Chi gen is fine. You're supposed to generate it preemptively and use it when it would be most effective, not sit around casting Healing Sphere and then complain you can't use your Chi spells when the big damage goes out. If you need more or screwed up, there's always Jab.


You clearly don't understand the argument that is going on if this is your response. I don't know how you can be so clearly missing the point of the argument. Reread the previous posts about it and come back once you understand the argument.

Chi torpedo is probably a lot better in 25 mans. Its. Free. Healing. That is amazing, full stop. One awesome thing about Healing Spheres is they only fire off when someone actually needs the healing.


Just because its. free. healing. doesn't mean that it's well. designed. healing. which is the discussion. The point I'm trying to make isn't about how much it heals for or how much it costs, but rather the design intent of the ability. It feels like a novelty spell and I'd rather have a more core healing ability like our tier 30 talents be more impactful than a gimmick. That's my opinion and it may be different than yours or others on these boards, but that's how I feel about chi torpedo being a "gimmick" spell.

One awesome thing about Healing Spheres is that they don't care how much health is missing or if someone else needs more healing. Oh, you are missing 100 health, here's a full 130k crit heal.

This is my experience as well, for the most part. There's just been a few times that for whatever reason, the time where my TFT'd ReMs start falling off (or ReM never spread thanks to the raid being spread out too far). For instance, for whatever reason, on Elegon our kills of the adds (and thus, annihilations) always ended up happening when I only had 4 or 5 ReMs out, even though I had been casting ReM on CD the whole fight. I tried moving TFT around but didn't have much success. There's been a few other times that has happened. Not many, but a few.


So, this is the second time that you are describing the situations where ReM just flat out fails, yet somehow you keep saying that it's perfectly fine. Get a clue dude and stop ignoring your own comments. These problems wouldn't be as big of a deal if we had anything to fall back on.
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100 Human Monk
11910
I got a Wind Bomb on Wind Lord the other day. I'm not sure we're actually always categorized as melee (even if we're at range).


If you are at range, then you are ranged regardless of your class or spec. It's always been this way with regard to encounter design. Check out boss fights like Staghelm in firelands. I can't tell you how many wipes we had because of transitioning melee getting leaping flames.

The Soothing Mist synergy and efficient applications of Surging Mist certainly will. Cmon, we have a relatively efficient, spammable, INSTANT CAST nuke. If someone needs saving, we can do it (at the cost of large amounts of mana).


Any other classes "flash heal" will land before we can make an instant cast SuM given we have to switch targets. It's just as effective to hard cast it if switching targets. The fact that it's instant cast is typically negated by the fact you have to channel the spell (i.e. not moving). I don't feel that this gives any advantage or disadvantage when compared to the other healers.

The surging mist cost right now does feel to be too high but at this point in the expansion, then that's arguable where it should be. I could go into the semantics of healing progression over the course of an expansion, but I think it would be a novel. I think the mana cost "feels" too high right now because it's our only reliable "big" heal given that enveloping mists has an artificial cooldown on it.

This is just what HOT healers are like. Druids are similar in design. HOT healers are the stabilizers - we go out there, put out big numbers in small increments and stabilize raiders while other healers bring people up to safe levels. Healing meters matter. Not in the same way DPS meters do, but they matter. Tranq and Divine Hymn are 3 min CDs too.


The big thing to understand with all the other healers (even the HoT healers) is that they don't rely on JUST the hot heals to be their entire amount of raid healing. You are typically mixing together mid level single target heals in with your aoe healing spells to both maintain your mana and deal with different targets taking different amounts of damage.

Because our mid level heal is Enveloping mists which has the limitations of being Chi based, we can't use that to supplement the raid because doing that would use the same resources that we need to do our aoe heal spells. Soothing mists heals too slowly to be a sufficient mid level heal during this time. The changes being made to the tier 30 talents to remove their chi cost is definitely a step in the right direction. It actually separates out some of the healing from being strictly uplift/ReM based. It will be something to test to see if this covers what is needed or not.

I'm not going to comment on the raid cooldown issues because it really isn't something that is making or breaking the class. There's some obvious derps going on with the design but it's something that isn't the end of the world.
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90 Pandaren Monk
8880
Sorry Superhero but blizzard does categorize class/spec as melee or ranged. Monks are considered melee for the purposes of several fights. We will not generate wind bombs or tornados in HoF. RShaman for instance will get them in melee if the stand in melee. May I also suggest that you try chi torpedo for a night or 2. It is good (even in 10 mans) and gets to be quite fun. I was very negative on this as well but after a night or 2 it's now my most fun spell. Got to agree on healing sphere suckage for pve.

My biggest concern in 10s is my single target healing. IMO to single target we need to SuM the target. Env is not on demand and Surging is to expensive. Healing sphere takes me off the grid and targeting it takes a tic or 2 best case scenario. SuM limits our ability to fist. Raid healing we are strong in 10s except for unexpected damage. Chi torpedo and/or chi wave (5.2) should help with this issue. Right now happy with the spec but lower gear Monks must have it rough without the gear to support RM on cool down.

It is great to see some MW discussion again lets all keep it polite and hope the Druids don't find us. 5.2 changes are very intriguing but I have yet to see any resource discussing the changes.
Edited by Glaurfu on 2/1/2013 11:51 AM PST
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100 Human Monk
11910
02/01/2013 11:48 AMPosted by Glaurfu
Sorry Superhero but blizzard does categorize class/spec as melee or ranged. Monks are considered melee for the purposes of several fights. We will not generate wind bombs or tornados in HoF.


Assuming that Ramayama isn't lying, then it's possible for MW to get hit with wind bombs. It may be on an encounter by encounter basis as far as the design intent. My guess is that you need a minimum amount of "ranged" classified people in your raid and if you have the minimum amount but then have someone die, it could target a melee. That's how it worked previously if you didn't meet the requirement for enough "ranged". In the end it's a moot point though because having a raid that's all melee probably wouldn't be good for business. =)

With Chi torpedo, I'm sort of looking at it the other way with using Xuen as my midrange healing cooldown. With the amount of movement going on in so many of these fights, I feel like I was wasting torpedo just so that I could reposition. I did run Chi torpedo initially and I wasn't a real big fan of it. I think they did buff it since I did that though.
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90 Pandaren Monk
8880
Not saying he is lying. Such an overly harsh phrase. Mistaken perhaps. Bug perhaps. But I do feel confident that mechanic is now based upon class/spec rather then numbers. Pisses our holy pally off that he can't stand in melee. Not that important but for new monks reading the thread they should know that they are a melee class.
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100 Pandaren Monk
5085
Assuming that Ramayama isn't lying, then it's possible for MW to get hit with wind bombs. It may be on an encounter by encounter basis as far as the design intent. My guess is that you need a minimum amount of "ranged" classified people in your raid and if you have the minimum amount but then have someone die, it could target a melee. That's how it worked previously if you didn't meet the requirement for enough "ranged". In the end it's a moot point though because having a raid that's all melee probably wouldn't be good for business. =)


It was a 25 man with plenty of ranged and melee. I was bragging about this melee/ranged business to our MT and I promptly got a Wind Bomb. Very embarassing.

So, you are saying that because it's useful in 2 encounters, then it's a well designed spell and it's a core part of the monk healing arsenal?


No, those were just two examples. There are other encounters this tier where tanks get hit hard.

Secondly, address the topic and stop bashing me personally, it's not getting you anywhere. Considering you've killed all of 2 heroic bosses, then it wouldn't be something that I'd be bragging about or trying to hold over my head. This is why I used to post on my non-raiding character just to avoid people ignoring the discussion and focusing on the WRONG things.


I'm an officer/RL of a guild that's currently 5/6 H MSV, 2/6 H 4/4 normal ToES. My character doesn't have those achievements because I'm coming off a three month break. We've been doing heroic modes since TOC. 8/8 Heroic DS FWIW. Nothing I've said is personal bashing.

Did I say the sky is falling? Did I say that somehow monks aren't able to perform their role? No, understand the discussion. I'm saying that monks have serious gaps in their healing tools and I'm pointing out what those gaps are. Just because we're able to hit certain HPS numbers doesn't mean that their aren't problems with the class design.


That's kind of like saying "Does that guy have life-threatening injuries? No, of course not, he only has several serious gunshot wounds to the abdomen."

Yes, I don't like the massive dependence on ReM and I feel that TFT is a boring spell because it's only used for uplift. That doesn't mean I somehow hate the class. It means that I don't like one aspect of the class which is why I'm here discussing it. Is that hard to understand?


You want to have a discussion or a shouting match? If, as you purport, you want to discuss the class, make points about the class.

You clearly don't understand the argument that is going on if this is your response.


Enlighten me then.

So, this is the second time that you are describing the situations where ReM just flat out fails, yet somehow you keep saying that it's perfectly fine.


Every class has a way that their AOE mechanic fails. Shaman fail when the raid is too spread out. Druids fail at burst. Priests fail when damage doesn't fit a POH pattern. Paladins fail if they can't hit people with Light of Dawn (that is what they're using for AOE these days, yes? - not up on Holy Pally atm). Monks fail when they don't have enough ReM's out. No one has it perfect. The question is: does that fail happen often enough to make Monks significantly substandard at dealing with burst? I don't think so atm, but I think it is something Blizzard should be aware of and watching out for. So, on a scale,

10 - SKY IS FALLING
9- Shards of Blue
8 - Cracks in the stratosphere
7 - Sturm und Drang
6 - Thunder and Lightning
5 - Really, really annoying
4 - Really annoying
3 - Eh.
2 - What?
1 - :)

I'd say this issue is around the 4 or 5 mark, but hasn't yet gotten above that.

Any other classes "flash heal" will land before we can make an instant cast SuM given we have to switch targets.


Not if you're already channeling Soothing Mists on the target like you're supposed to. Start out by healing light to moderate ST damage with Soothing Mists. If/When the target takes a big spike, respond with Surging Mists. If the target isn't in danger of dying, just keep channeling Soothing Mists until you have enough Chi for Enveloping Mists.

Assuming that Ramayama isn't lying


You riddle your posts with this kind of stuff and then get upset at me for imagined personal slights. I'm starting to remember why I left the official forums.
Edited by Ramayana on 2/1/2013 4:36 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
8880
02/01/2013 04:31 PMPosted by Ramayana
Assuming that Ramayama isn't lying, then it's possible for MW to get hit with wind bombs. It may be on an encounter by encounter basis as far as the design intent. My guess is that you need a minimum amount of "ranged" classified people in your raid and if you have the minimum amount but then have someone die, it could target a melee. That's how it worked previously if you didn't meet the requirement for enough "ranged". In the end it's a moot point though because having a raid that's all melee probably wouldn't be good for business. =)


It was a 25 man with plenty of ranged and melee. I was bragging about this melee/ranged business to our MT and I promptly got a Wind Bomb. Very embarassing.

Assuming that Ramayama isn't lying


You riddle your posts with this kind of stuff and then get upset at me for imagined personal slights. I'm starting to remember why I left the official forums.


Let me assure you that I am not accusing you of lying. Strange things happen on occasion in this game. I do know that I am in melee on these fights and that I make fun of our HPally who can't get in melee. Back when I read up on these fights I am fairly certain that Monk as melee was the common conception.
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90 Pandaren Monk
8880
SuM as an essential part of tank healing is very true and why my basic healing revolves around SuM on the tank to generate chi, ReM on cooldown to generate chi and spread hots, stand in melee to jab for on demand chi, uplift for raid damage, Env for tank damage and Surge for dire straits (it is a mana hog). TfT and Chi brew as a mini raid cooldown for spike raid damage. Chi torpedo spam for those times I am caught without chi or inadequate ReM spread. Also for fun times zooming around the raid.

This healing rotation though makes me feel like I am underutilizing the Monk tool kit because fistweaving is such a small part of my healing. My hope is that the 5.2 changes will allow fistweaving to become more viable for tank healing. Jab/ToP sounds like it might be a fistweave tank heal. Maybe it is viable now but it hasn't worked for me in 10 mans.
Edited by Glaurfu on 2/1/2013 6:15 PM PST
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02/01/2013 11:48 AMPosted by Glaurfu
Sorry Superhero but blizzard does categorize class/spec as melee or ranged. Monks are considered melee for the purposes of several fights. We will not generate wind bombs or tornados in HoF.


I have never heard that before, it's always been based on where you're standing. Mechanics like that just prefer targets at range; if all targets stand in melee, then they get it.

As far as I know, the game only knows what role you are based on a role check, and for dps, it doesn't distinguish between melee and ranged. It also tends to go by threat, since mechanics that ignore/effect tanks are based on threat and aggro. But I've never heard of fight mechanics picking targets based on what spec they're currently in.
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90 Pandaren Monk
6860
SuM as an essential part of tank healing is very true and why my basic healing revolves around SuM on the tank to generate chi, ReM on cooldown to generate chi and spread hots, stand in melee to jab for on demand chi, uplift for raid damage, Env for tank damage and Surge for dire straits (it is a mana hog). TfT and Chi brew as a mini raid cooldown for spike raid damage. Chi torpedo spam for those times I am caught without chi or inadequate ReM spread. Also for fun times zooming around the raid.

This healing rotation though makes me feel like I am underutilizing the Monk tool kit because fistweaving is such a small part of my healing. My hope is that the 5.2 changes will allow fistweaving to become more viable for tank healing. Jab/ToP sounds like it might be a fistweave tank heal. Maybe it is viable now but it hasn't worked for me in 10 mans.

Again, I'm still new to Fistweaving, but I found that it just doesn't work for tank healing. I've since been dropping into LFR and LFD to practice the role, and I feel pretty comfortable with mana conservation, but I do know that I should be switching to cast healing when the AoE is too much to handle

A perfect example of when to switch is the entirety of Scholomance. Fights like Chillheart and Gandling are amazing for Fistweaving, because of the lack of damage the tank is taking overall; there's a lot more party damage going out. However, fights like Janice Barov (referring to Wonderous Rapidity and Gravity Flux) and Rattlegore, and parts of Lillian Voss, where damage can be done in harsh spikes, even to the party, it's simply too rough to rely solely on fistweaving. This goes doubly so for Rattlegore, where the tank can and will get chunked very quickly.

The changes I see in 5.2 strike me as changes that'll help in spike AoE healing which, in turn, will only help our AoE heals, while the upcoming Zen Sphere change looks like another mini-cooldown, this time for tanks. There's also the HS change coming up, which will only add to the power of AoE heals. I think that'll give us some strength in AoE, even when we aren't intending it, such as in tank healing. However, I still don't think our spike healing will be that reliable outside of SuM.
Edited by Fistlobster on 2/1/2013 6:48 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13730
02/01/2013 06:31 PMPosted by Flintte
But I've never heard of fight mechanics picking targets based on what spec they're currently in.

They've had the ability to do that since at least the crystals on Ultraxion. I can't speak to whether or not they're actually using that capability on this particular encounter, but they certainly have it.
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90 Gnome Monk
7430
02/01/2013 05:46 PMPosted by Glaurfu


It was a 25 man with plenty of ranged and melee. I was bragging about this melee/ranged business to our MT and I promptly got a Wind Bomb. Very embarassing.



You riddle your posts with this kind of stuff and then get upset at me for imagined personal slights. I'm starting to remember why I left the official forums.


Let me assure you that I am not accusing you of lying. Strange things happen on occasion in this game. I do know that I am in melee on these fights and that I make fun of our HPally who can't get in melee. Back when I read up on these fights I am fairly certain that Monk as melee was the common conception.


I have to say something weird happened if you got wind bombed. I've never once seen a mw get targeted for that in all my lfrs or normal runs.

On a slightly unrelated note, am I the only mw that never gets mind controlled by the grand vizier if there are other non-tank types available? Our raid has been doing that fight for weeks now and the only time I ever get mc is when we are in the process of wiping and the only other option is the tank...
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90 Pandaren Monk
7600
Only post people need to read from this whole jumble is from Mist. I agree with what he wrote and believe that he has provided the best description and strategy of how to play our class.

Side note: We are definitely considered only Melee. No wind bombs or scalpels ever.
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100 Pandaren Monk
5085
The reason that I'm being a %@%!@%%@ to you is because, and I mentioned this already, half of your argument is saying "just because I said so" and "I know more than you because I've killed more heroics". I honestly don't give a crap about either of those excuses. They are worthless in terms of discussion and is a complete waste of time. If you want to have a discussion about it, then stick with the damn points. Don't target my heroic kills, don't waste time even mentioning ignorant comments like the sky is falling, etc. It's pretty simple.


Okay, point 1. Enveloping Mists is a very useful spell if you have lots of single target healing to do - in other words, there's so much healing to do, that you're less worried about being sniped than about making sure the tank lives. If you don't have a lot of single target healing to do, then yes, it isn't very useful. But you can say that about most of the Greater Heal equivalents.

I only made the comment about the difficultly level you are doing because I feel that if you feel like your Enveloping Mists is getting sniped all the time, you probably are either doing content that's too easy for you or you are bringing too many healers, or perhaps are just being assigned to raid heal, and low EM use is to be expected.

Your posts just come off as a pompous jerk and it annoys the crap out of me. When you post things like "ReM usage is fine" and then don't address any of the problems that I list about it. When you post things like "Uplift is fine" and then you don't address any of the problems that I list.


Point 2. Are Mistweavers competitive and useful PVE content? Yes. Can Mistweavers raid heal effectively? Yes. Can Mistweavers tank heal effectively? Yes.

Point 3. Mistweaver's ability to react to unpredictable raidwide burst damage is somewhat unreliable. Personally, I don't think this is a "serious gap". Every healing class has its weakness, and this is ours. I acknowledge it is there, but I don't think its gotten out of control yet. That about covers my thoughts on ReM and Uplift.

If I understand you correctly, you think point 3 is a big problem (among other things), so there I'd have to disagree. Point 2 and 3 are two separate things, and just because Point 3 is true doesn't mean Point 2 is false.

Point 4. I don't really mind that TFT gets used for ReM most of the time. Maybe that's because I'm coming from a Holy Priest perspective (where there's some truly confusing spell interactions and self-contradicting mechanics), but it doesn't bother me (it might bother you and that's perfectly valid). I'll bet if you PVP often, you use TFT for Surging Mists more than ReM.

I can't deal with people like you because you just have such a dead set "I am right" mentality that you'll do everything you can do to ignore the discussion and argue things that didn't matter to begin with and still don't matter.


I think you're confusing "I have an opinion and I am backing it up with reasoning" with "I am always right". I participate in these discussions to learn. For instance, I learned in this very thread that I might want to take another look at Healing Sphere. I looked at the math and I feel that it has amazing HPM and HPS on the face of it, but once you consider its complete lack of Chi generation, Healing Sphere must still take a back seat to other MW spells.

So, if you want to have a discussion about mw, then let's have a discussion about mistweavers. If you want to spout sunshine and roses out about how everything is perfectly fine, then I'm just going to ignore you. I'm not sure how I can be any more clear, especially with blizzard making the amount of changes they are making to monk class with 5.2.


Great, lets start by removing the second person pronoun from our discussions.

You then go on to describe more problems with the spell but are so pompous that "everything is fine" that it just doesn't compute. You keep saying one thing and then jumping ship to the other every other sentence almost.


May I be allowed to disagree that Mistweavers have serious problems, while still acknowledging that not everything is perfect?
Edited by Ramayana on 2/2/2013 10:12 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17985
As a note on the subject of "monks being melee and not being targetted by things that don't target melee."

You are correct. If you are in melee, you will -never- be targeted by things like water spout on heroic sha, wind bombs, etc. However, if you dodge a bit too far out, or if you overstep what is considered "melee range." - you will be allowed to be targeted by these things.

We had one particular pull on Feng when we were learning it that the split second I stepped a bit too far from the boss, I got targeted by his explodey-move and killed everyone. As long as you're in the bosses butt, you're fine. If you aren't, your raid will hate you. I'll catch up on the rest of this thread later, though. Just wanted to drop in and say this.
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100 Pandaren Monk
5085
You are correct. If you are in melee, you will -never- be targeted by things like water spout on heroic sha, wind bombs, etc. However, if you dodge a bit too far out, or if you overstep what is considered "melee range." - you will be allowed to be targeted by these things.


I think what people are saying is that you'll always be classified as melee, whether you're at range or not. You're flagged by the game as always melee. I'm inclined that the quoted statement is true from my experience.
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17985
Yeah, you're not always classified as melee. I died to water spout entirely too many times to be classified as melee at ranged. >>

I think monks are classified as both, depending on where they are. A healer who could stand at ranged and never be targeted by things would be entirely too powerful.

e: I've also been targeted by pinning arrows after stepping out of melee as well. I mean, basically everything that can hit ranged, I've been hit by at ranged. You're only excluded when you're standing in melee range.
Edited by Mist on 2/2/2013 2:39 PM PST
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