Will our sustain damage ever be buffed? (PVE)

90 Human Paladin
11095
What do you guys think? Yes in PvE we have great burst, the first 30 seconds its amazing, we are topping the charts and putting out a lot of DPS. As Heroism/lust fades our damage slowly begins to dwindle, we begin to see our class weakness, our sustain DPS. I personally think they are a lot of changes that could possibly help our sustain dps a bit.

Taking Inq. off GCD or perhaps have it on a 30s CD, last 30s, and cost no holy power. Perhaps buffing the damage a bit of our attacks would be good as well but i'm not sure. I understand we bring a lot of utility to the table with bops, sacs, Devo, and hand of purity which can really be great in fights, but are Ret paladins only being brought because of this and not our damage? And not to mention, if you already have 2 holy pallys and a prot pally, what is the reason to bring a ret if you can bring any other melee that could do better damage?

We need something to happen to our sustain damage so that we are brought in not only for our utility but for our damage as well. If there comes a situation where there is a prot pally and 2 holy pallys already (depending on fight) we shouldn't be over looked because our damage may be a bit lower satistically compared to other melee. I put out some suggestions that I think would help, what do you guys think?

Don't get me wrong, I think most higher parsing pallys including myself are not far behind other melee classes, but there still seems to be something missing. And yes, the 5.2 set bonuses seem amazing, but are set bonuses really gonna save the class?
Edited by Jval on 1/27/2013 2:01 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
7900
There are some people that say Ret is bad, others will say Ret is balanced and perfect the way it is.

I believe there is a bit of a problem that tends to keep Ret down somewhere near the middle/bottom of the DPS meters. I think that our sustained damage ( or lack thereof ) is one of the things holding us down.

Those are just my thoughts.

Edit: As for our sustained damage being buffed? I wouldn't hold my breath.
Edited by Thadium on 1/27/2013 3:16 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5590
We might need a little change, maybe something little like what you just suggested about Inquisition, taking it off GCD and making it cost mana instead of HP would be freaking great.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9290
01/27/2013 06:35 PMPosted by Akkroma
We might need a little change, maybe something little like what you just suggested about Inquisition, taking it off GCD and making it cost mana instead of HP would be freaking great.


That would be the exact same thing as removing it entirely. Inq is not a bad design. It adds to the complexity of the priority and requires us to ramp up before burst. It was implemented for a reason and it is still fulfilling that purpose.

I don't have any experience at the OPs level of play, but the logs are showing him quite low on the meters, which i'm quite surprised by. I'm also not familiar with the heroic mechanics of the fights he has recently logged, so I can't make an accurate guess as to why his damage is so much lower than the rest of his raid.

Perhaps ret does need a buff to scaling so that we aren't so weak at higher gear levels, but at the average level of play we are still strong if played right.

Jval raises good points; I wish I had the answers.

Perhaps a more experienced ret does.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13850
I agree with the OP. Our sustain is very sad, I will burst up to 160k on average at the beginning of a fight then slowly drop to 60k-70k. While I see some of the other melee in my raid with just as good of burst (i.e. Frost DK), but with enough sustained dps to keep him at 80k-90k dps through out the fight. On the other hand I have a Feral druid who's burst isn't great but will slowly ramp up to around the same as the frost DK.
I would rather have less burst in exchange for more sustain. What exactly would I give up for said sustain? I don't know really. I heard that the 4p t14 was intended to help with our sustain by allowing us to use AW more often, but I don't think it was enough. Maybe adding another DoT into out damage source may help. Like I said I'm not sure what we would need.
I do understand the effect that can have on PvP. Do I PvP? No, but I do understand the necessity of class balancing. Although, I haven't heard any talk of Ret paladin damage being "OP".
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9290
01/27/2013 11:19 PMPosted by Sero
I will burst up to 160k on average at the beginning of a fight then slowly drop to 60k-70k.


I said I didn't have experience to talk of the OP's situation, but yours I can, and I must say that it is something you personally are doing that is causing your dps to drop. You should still be competing with that frost dk at close to 90k.

Either you're exaggerating a bit with the 60-70k (I'm assuming that is overall at the end of the fight) or you have something wrong with the priority you're following.

There are things you can change in your gear too, but those can't be the cause for all the dps loss.

The MSV trash trinket is pretty awful. Replace it asap. You can probably start gemming haste>strength over a mix of the two.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13850
I actually just changed my gems to Str this evening. Trying something new, I was at over 23% haste before I switched. The first chance I have to switch this trinket I will. I think the issue I have is that I don't have another Ret Paladin to compete with or compare myself to. In LFR I can stay up in the top 5 for damage, above other Ret Paladins. Although, most of the people I raid with are above average players. Also, I just noticed that Armory doesn't correctly show the amount of Haste that trinket gives. Armory shows it giving 86 haste for 15 secs, it actually gives 3595 haste for 15 secs.
Edited by Sero on 1/28/2013 12:08 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9290
Yeah armory tooltips have been bugged for quite some time.

You should try downloading and using simcraft. It's not too hard to figure out and it's so helpful. You can find out your stat weights, solving your haste/str gemming problem and also maximizing your dps by finding the optimal reforge.

You can compare your dps to that of simcraft for a fairly accurate idea of what you should be doing. You can also compare talents and gear etc.

If you have troubles downloading/using simcraft, ask on these forums or check youtube for a video. I'm sure there are several, and it can be helpful to see someone actually do it.
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90 Human Paladin
7590
01/28/2013 12:01 AMPosted by Sero
I actually just changed my gems to Str this evening.


Can you let us know how regeming to str affects your DPS? I, too am having issues sometimes staying competitive with other classes, though not as extreme as you portrayed.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8240
Why in the name of all that is holy do people always whine about sustained dps?

As long as damage over long periods of time remains close, Burst > Sustained.

If anything, buff Ret Burst.

Also, just take Divine Purpose if you want more sustained and less burst.
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90 Human Paladin
15265
Buff Censure

There, sustain is fixed, burst is the same, all is well.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
Buff Censure

There, sustain is fixed, burst is the same, all is well.


Wrong, Chaz, 'cause Censure already ticks pretty hard and would tick even harder with CDs up.

The only way to buff sustained is to nerf burst.
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90 Human Paladin
15265
Buff Censure

There, sustain is fixed, burst is the same, all is well.


Wrong, Chaz, 'cause Censure already ticks pretty hard and would tick even harder with CDs up.

The only way to buff sustained is to nerf burst.


Are you trolling me?
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
Why should I be doing that? Censure's one of the main reasons we don't swap to SoR for AoE - especially if multi-DoTing with it. Our native CDs, plus Hero (which speeds up Censure ticks and adds them) would only have Censure contribute further to our burst output.
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90 Human Paladin
15265
Dots don't contribute to 'burst', they're dots

They're the definition of sustained periodic damage.

Increasing censure ticks wont do anything about our 'burst' issue.
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90 Human Paladin
9970
Censure still ticks during cooldowns, after all. Still, it is a backloaded DoT, so the impact on burst would be minimal compared to buffing, say, TV.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18330
Sustained NEEDS to be buffed, PvE and PvP damage feel really bad.

Burst should not be touched.
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90 Human Paladin
18040
Add 3 seconds per Holy Power to Inquisition. Less need to refresh Inquisition = more Templar's Verdicts, which equals higher sustained damage. And since our burst is basically in 30 second blocks, it won't increase burst at all, as we already have Inquisition up for those burst periods.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8030
Why in the name of all that is holy do people always whine about sustained dps?

As long as damage over long periods of time remains close, Burst > Sustained.

This confuses me as well. At the end of the day what really matters to any dps class is the amount of damage they can dish out over a given boss fight. Pretty much everything...sims, blizz, etc, say that ret's overall damage is pretty middle of the pack. Not high, not too low either. Knowing this, why would people want more sustained and less burst? As long as the end result is the same amount of damage, burst is indeed>sustained.

Is it because the skillcap is higher? Popping a cd at the wrong time and having to say stop dps cripples our performance? A common complaint from shadow priests, a spec that is in general doing quite well atm, is they have almost zero burst. Pretty sure they would kill for our cd's. Honest question, enlighten me. I main as holy and just dabble as ret, so I could be missing something.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
01/28/2013 12:24 PMPosted by Ravicana
Censure still ticks during cooldowns, after all. Still, it is a backloaded DoT, so the impact on burst would be minimal compared to buffing, say, TV.


Unless RNG crops up and we get a string of Censure crits, and some Mage cries "ZOMG cnsur! nurff!!!1!!" Though I do agree it would be a minor increase, it is an increase nonetheless and the Blues have stated they don't want that.
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