Remove Dodge/Parry

90 Human Paladin
7130
In the short term you could convert dodge and parry into armor.
Active (Haste) tanking is fun and I don't want to see Blizz "sacred cow" it back to the way it was.

All classes when tanking should work for their damage reduction per second the exact same way a dps works for their DPS. Haste/Hit/crit/expertise all would become useful for tanking. Way more potential tanks in the game and tanking would be fun and skill quantifiable (DrPS).
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How about not. Haste already fills a special place for paladins. Giving haste an alternative effect would mean paladins would be "double-dipping," which is something that is generally frowned upon.

Hit and Expertise are already useful for tanking.

Haste and Crit don't need to be useful for tanking.

I don't know about and can't speak for others, but there is a level of enjoyment in balancing and configuring my gear. The stats might be "passive," but they play an important part in optimizing your survivability. It's not as simple as [get more haste!]

Tanking is fun, and skill is quantifiable now. A bad tank is far less survivable than a good tank. An amazing tank is extremely survivable and can deal better than average DPS to boot.
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90 Human Death Knight
5420
Tanking is fine, for the most part, at where it is now with Active/Reactive Mitigation. I enjoy the fact that you have to work/time/manage your cooldowns, resources, and play style. Being back to a 'haste active' tanking style just feels way to passive to me, especially with how mitigation is now almost purely active/reactive.

To be honest, I feel active/reactive mitigation is now weeding out the bad tanks and glorifying the good ones in a show of skill, and I enjoy being one of the good tanks out there. It's very rewarding.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
14920
01/28/2013 09:59 PMPosted by Rakigo
Being back to a 'haste active' tanking style just feels way to passive to me, especially with how mitigation is now almost purely active/reactive.


01/28/2013 09:49 PMPosted by Zapwidget
How about not. Haste already fills a special place for paladins. Giving haste an alternative effect would mean paladins would be "double-dipping," which is something that is generally frowned upon.


I think the OP just wants tanks to benefit from dps stats similarly to how Paladins currently benefit from haste.

Which could be fine for next expansion. We're already about halfway there with the way stats work now.
Edited by Nerfheals on 1/28/2013 10:11 PM PST
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Your idea would utterly fail with druid tanks.
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01/28/2013 10:10 PMPosted by Nerfheals
I think the OP just wants tanks to benefit from dps stats similarly to how Paladins currently benefit from haste.


Having some benefit from DPS stats is all well and good, but removing survivability stats completely would be terrible. People, and especially paladins, really need to get out of this mindset that avoidance stats are bad. They aren't bad. Even if the stat is not as strong as another option, it's still a solid choice.
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90 Tauren Paladin
11340
The only way, short of over nerfing haste, to get us to care about dodge and parry again is simply to give us some form of mechanic that revolves around one of them, similar to revenge for warriors making parry even better for them.

Haste is good because we have a significant mechanic based around it, mastery is good because of that and its passive benefits. Parry and dodge are just passive, which doesn't work well nowadays with the level of control tanks have in their ability to not die horrible deaths.

Make the stats interesting, don't Nerf the ones that already are.

Thinking on it more, allowing avoidance (and perhaps even blocks) to activate grand crusader might do the trick, depending on the chance it had.
Edited by Darpalta on 1/28/2013 11:20 PM PST
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If anything, Dodge and Parry need to be more integral to our survival. I have no problem with Haste being part of a Prot Paladin since Mastery is still left as an option. Still, consider the following classes:

Blood Dodging and Parrying an attack means less use of their Blood Shield, so overall they still value Dodge and Parry. Not as much as Mastery, but alas some merit. Dancing Rune Weapon also gives an extra 20% chance to Parry while active. I won't mention Army of the Undead since most people use it during the beginning of the fight - before combat even starts.

Also, on a side note, anyone else kind of find it a little unfair that Blood DKs are the only real tanks that don't completely have to follow DPS stats? Even Prot Warriors have to cap Hit and Expertise...

Protection Warriors Dodging and Parrying equate to Revenge procs, which in itself is sort of a DPS increase as well as an increase to Rage regeneration. While Mastery and Hit / Expertise hold more weight than Dodge and Parry, it is still a major component to Prot Warriors.

Bear Druids benefit thanks to Savage Defense increasing Dodge by 45%. Let's also review that they use a DPS stat that is probably never thought of for tanking whatsoever - Crit. Even Haste has minor benefit for classes such as Blood DK (faster rune regeneration).

Brewmaster Monks have Shuffle increase their Parry chance by 20% and Elusive Brew increasing by 30% for 1 second per stack.

This leaves Prot Paladins. If you look at most of the tanks listed, while they have Dodge and Parry listed in their "optimal stats", they at least provide a benefit somewhere outside of "oh look I don't take damage". For Prot, our "mitigation" involves re-healing ourselves through Bastion of Glory charges and Word of Glory or mitigating physical damage by X% through Shield of the Righteous for a short amount of time.

I want everyone to keep in mind that this is not me complaining whatsoever. I can actually agree with Ghostcrawler - to an extent - that Dodge and Parry need to have some value for Prot Paladins this time around. It seems like GC even confesses that there's nothing really "wrong" with stacking Haste on ourselves, but we could use a good middle road between Haste and Dodge / Parry. Haste should still benefit for us, but so should Dodge and Parry. Thankfully Dodge and Parry have some value, but it's "arguably" smaller than it is for other tanking classes that get additional benefits with it.
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90 Orc Death Knight
7385
Dodge and Parry are quite underwhelming in their budget. While I wouldn't take DPS gear over a piece that has avoidance, I generally reforge avoidance to mastery or hit/exp. I do feel it's important to have that baseline that tanking gear provides, however.

800 or so rating gets 1%. I can reforge away negligible amounts of it and gain significant amounts of DPS potential in return.

Does Parry still haste your attacks?
Edited by Kilmor on 1/29/2013 12:20 AM PST
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90 Tauren Paladin
11340
Parry haste was removed in cata, for mobs and players (if it ever existed for players).
Edited by Darpalta on 1/29/2013 12:39 AM PST
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100 Human Paladin
13675
Dodge is bad. At least for plate tanks. The reason it's bad is because the DR is extremely harsh. Parry is pretty good.

I would support something like this:

Dodge -> Leather tanks ONLY. Monks and Druids.
Parry -> Plate tanks ONLY. Paladins, DKs, Warriors.

Nothing disappoints me more than seeing BOTH dodge and parry on the same piece of gear. A further change I would support:

Hit -> Casters and Hunters ONLY.
Expertise -> Melee and Tanks.

I don't really understand why it makes sense to have redundant stats.
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90 Human Paladin
10930
Dodge and parry should have a place in the game but they have to do more than just exist in the background for them to be interesting in any way. People are attached to haste because it affects our gameplay. It changes how we play. If avoidance stats did that too I'm sure more people would enjoy them.
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100 Night Elf Warrior
17480
Dodge is bad. At least for plate tanks. The reason it's bad is because the DR is extremely harsh. Parry is pretty good.

I would support something like this:

Dodge -> Leather tanks ONLY. Monks and Druids.
Parry -> Plate tanks ONLY. Paladins, DKs, Warriors.

Nothing disappoints me more than seeing BOTH dodge and parry on the same piece of gear. A further change I would support:

Hit -> Casters and Hunters ONLY.
Expertise -> Melee and Tanks.

I don't really understand why it makes sense to have redundant stats.


How would expertise only for melee work? Different classes want different things from their "accuracy" stats, namely people that DW

DW melee would want to go yellow miss reduction-->dodge reduction-->white miss reduction-->parry reduction(will never get this far, but only thing left)

DW tanks(monks) would want to go yellow miss reduction-->dodge reduction--> parry reduction-->white miss reduction(will never gear for this, but is the only thing left)

I mean, you could have expertise reduce parry chance before white miss chance for brewmaster alone, or make other changes so that there aren't different special caps for melee dps and tanks, but right now expertise and hit being distinct is actually kinda important.
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90 Night Elf Monk
8430
I am kind of in agreement here, if for no better reason than it eliminates having to gear up twice as a plate tank (if you want to DPS, that is). Warriors and Paladin should be able to get the bulk of their defenses from shields and mastery. Dodge and Parry no longer seem relevant with the whole active tanking paradigm. It is a passive defense.

Failing that, I will agree, if a class is supposed to stack dodge and parry they should see more benefit from it. Warrior is really the only plate class I know of that benefits heavily from parry, due to Revenge.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
01/29/2013 01:02 AMPosted by Dekkar
Dodge -> Leather tanks ONLY. Monks and Druids.

Don't give them ideas of putting Dodge on my gear >.<
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90 Pandaren Monk
8120
If you like that particular playstyle of having more active mitigation, play a monk, that is what we are all about. I love Brewmaster tanking.
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90 Orc Death Knight
8550
I would prefer dodge and parry to remain stats, but feed into a separate mitigation system. For instance, a bar fills up based on your dodge rating that you can then use to dodge the next attack; likewise with parry. You could even make it so there's stacks so you can dodge the next three attacks if you're a druid, or parry two in a row as a warrior. This would make if feel meaningful and also allow for a greater depth of strategy since you can choose to dodge a nasty thrash rather than just hoping you get lucky.

This is certainly not the only way of going about it, but to me making dodge or parry an active stat seems like a lot more fun than leaving it to rng.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
12995
01/29/2013 12:38 AMPosted by Darpalta
Parry haste was removed in cata, for mobs and players (if it ever existed for players).


Not really sure about the rest of the tanks, but dk's get some weird results from parries.

I've noticed it a few times and another guy on the dk forums did an actual test with a swing timer addon, dk's do gain some sort of parry haste, however it doesn't update on the paper doll.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7708991260?page=2#30

second page, 11 posts down.

With that being said, dodge and parry are fine as is.
People say that dodging/parrying an attack for example lowers a blood dk's mastery value, which from that standpoint could be considered true.

However would you rather take a hit that you healed back 20% of it and added a shield for 60% of that hit or just take zero damage period?

Could they rework it a bit to fit with the AM model?
of course, but that won't happen until next expansion, if at all
Edited by Salloreon on 1/29/2013 8:51 AM PST
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100 Human Paladin
13675
Dodge is bad. At least for plate tanks. The reason it's bad is because the DR is extremely harsh. Parry is pretty good.

I would support something like this:

Dodge -> Leather tanks ONLY. Monks and Druids.
Parry -> Plate tanks ONLY. Paladins, DKs, Warriors.

Nothing disappoints me more than seeing BOTH dodge and parry on the same piece of gear. A further change I would support:

Hit -> Casters and Hunters ONLY.
Expertise -> Melee and Tanks.

I don't really understand why it makes sense to have redundant stats.


How would expertise only for melee work? Different classes want different things from their "accuracy" stats, namely people that DW

DW melee would want to go yellow miss reduction-->dodge reduction-->white miss reduction-->parry reduction(will never get this far, but only thing left)

DW tanks(monks) would want to go yellow miss reduction-->dodge reduction--> parry reduction-->white miss reduction(will never gear for this, but is the only thing left)

I mean, you could have expertise reduce parry chance before white miss chance for brewmaster alone, or make other changes so that there aren't different special caps for melee dps and tanks, but right now expertise and hit being distinct is actually kinda important.


I was thinking about melee attacks never missing, just built into the game. Melee attacks could only be dodged, parried, or blocked. DW just would have a higher chance to be dodged with the offhand instead of miss as it is currently.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
10400
I was thinking the very same thing this morning.

As a paladin I actually like to being able to swap tank and dps gear for questing or just relaxing. As I'm primary holy I have to keep 3 sets of year: Int for holy, tank for my offspec and try to get some Dps for when I have to solo content. Removing dodge and parry would solve this issue.

I envy clases like spriest who can heal/dps on the same gear or druids who can tank/dps.

This active mitigation model could benefit for tanks having more dps stats, as with paladins: haste reduces CDs, which leads to more HoPo and thus more WoG and SotR

other clases could get the same benefits (i don't know this clases in deep so this is taken from the top of my head):

- Warriors and Druids could use crit for generating aditional rage
- DK could get faster rune regeneration from haste of bigger heals from bloodstrike with aditional crit.

Bottom line: parry and dodge are just pasive. I'm not saying there are not useful, they increase your survivality and make you fell "tankier". But most of their benefits could just be merged into armor and be replaced with stats that have a direct impact in the gameplay
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