Remove Dodge/Parry

100 Human Paladin
15270
01/28/2013 10:29 PMPosted by Zapwidget
People, and especially paladins, really need to get out of this mindset that avoidance stats are bad. They aren't bad. Even if the stat is not as strong as another option, it's still a solid choice.


I think there are two different claims going on that often get conflated:

1) Avoidance stats are bad, in that they're ineffective ways to make your character better.

I think this is incorrect. All the math I've seen (for paladins anyway) shows that they're a bit worse in terms of reducing spike damage and relatively similar in terms of total damage reduction. It's really unfortunate that people very quickly migrate to a mindset where their top 1-2 stats are "good" and all the other stats are "bad". The reality is that the gap between the two is often (not always, but often) quite small.

2) Avoidance stats are bad, in that they're boring or uninteresting ways to make your character better.

This claim I agree with completely. Mostly because they're totally passive. Waniou remarked in another thread that part of the problem is that unlike crits, there's no positive feedback (when you get a crit, a rather large number pops up on your screen; when you dodge an attack, usually it's either the absence of a number or at best the word "dodge"). I agree with that: dodging and parrying just feels less "fun" than critting, or never missing an attack, or doing everything faster.

Exacerbating this problem is that as Blizzard's discovered, there's just not much room to grow avoidance over the course of an expansion and still have things stay balanced. I'll admit, going from 30% total avoidance to 70% total avoidance over the course of Burning Crusade definitely made my upgrades in gear noticable, and even though dodge/parry were still just as "passive" then it felt like a dramatic improvement. But obviously this had serious balance implications - suddenly bosses like Brutallus had to hit insanely hard, they had to introduce Sunwell Radiance, etc.

This means that in order to be balanced, your avoidance gains from gear tend to be rather small, which means that they tend to be relatively unnoticable. With hit/expertise (something most people can usually trivially cap in the first tier of raiding content, if they care about it) you can go from 0% to 15% or 22.5%, if you like. Going from a 15/22.5% chance to miss to a 0% chance to miss is a pretty big spread. Ditto with stuff like haste (I'm approaching the point where I've sort of got mini-heroism up all the time, and this is only the first tier of raids!). Ditto with mastery (my haste rating would convert to 12%+ of additional SotR mitigation, which is pretty sick).

I'm also not sure that the warrior system ("make avoidance power abilities") is really a solution here. Best case scenario, even if you're a warrior with parry-based Revenge procs, the reality is that the increase in Revenge procs due to your gear is likely undetectable, because you start with enough baseline parry that you won't be able to actually discern "hey, I've got more parry now so I'm getting a lot more procs" from "hey, this boss has a slightly higher attack speed so I'm getting a lot more procs" and "hey, I'm tanking two mobs so I'm getting a lot of procs" and so on. Any impact from your avoidance gear is likely to be a feather on the scales compared to encounter mechanics.

Basically I think avoidance serves one noble purpose: it keeps melee swings from feeling like a metronome. But I don't think avoidance on gear is required to make that happen, and I don't think avoidance on gear really brings anything else to the table. I'd advocate for some reasonable amount of baseline avoidance, retaining anything that gives flat avoidance (e.g. stuff like Savage Defense and Evasion are fine), and not itemizing avoidance on gear anymore. You can have a few trinket procs (which can likely also give a flat amount of avoidance, with this change) and the like, but that's probably it.

I consider this a separate issue from whether there should be tanking stats or not. I can see an argument that having tanking gear be completely different from DPS gear is healthy for the game. I'm just not sure dodge and parry should be the stats to make that happen.
Edited by Branar on 1/29/2013 1:20 PM PST
Reply Quote
Branar has the right idea.

The biggest thing with general tanking stats (Dodge / Parry) is that, while they have a sentimental value, their value is slightly diminished by active mitigation's reliability. Random example - I have no problem taking a piece of gear that has Dodge or Parry on it. In fact, I'm even okay with taking both so long as the iLv difference is greater than what I have. The problem is some Prot Paladins are foregoing Dodge and Parry so much that they'll even go into dipping for gear that has Crit on it. Crit is nigh useless for us in comparison to Dodge and Parry. Where it gets tricky is when you're doing 10 mans or 25 mans and you have to distribute your gear. Does the Prot Pally get it and piss off the DPS, or does the Frost DK get it and the Prot Pally gets pissed? It's a lose-lose situation if the DPS gear lacks Crit on it (if it has Crit, DPS obviously wins the loot).
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
01/29/2013 12:23 PMPosted by Archet
Druids could use crit for generating aditional rage

Already exists.

Agree with Branar. Avoidance should (and already does) only improve as your primary stat (Str/Agi) increases. Avoidance secondaries should be entirely killed off now that everyone understands just how much better active mitigation actually is.

I think making Hit/Exp/Crit/Haste/Mastery matter to everyone (in varying ways and levels) is just fine. Druids are lucky enough to have this in spades. I wish it was the same for the rest of the tanking classes.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
15250
01/29/2013 01:52 PMPosted by Arielle
Agree with Branar.
Reply Quote
I think that leaves the problems with Blood DKs and Prot Warriors. These two classes still use the "traditional" tank stats with the only real DPS stats touched are Hit and Expertise (Prot can dip a little into Haste but it seems a bit irrelevant - more or less useful during Heroism phases). I'm not saying they should mold to the casing that Prot Paladins are creating, but it does make Prot Pally odd since they're, practically, the only plate tanking class that will take some DPS gear over Dodge / Parry gear (so long as it's beneficial). Even though we could argue Hit / Mastery gear and the like are also traditional "DPS" gear - which I would have no problem rolling on even as a Blood DK.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
I think that leaves the problems with Blood DKs and Prot Warriors. These two classes still use the "traditional" tank stats with the only real DPS stats touched are Hit and Expertise (Prot can dip a little into Haste but it seems a bit irrelevant - more or less useful during Heroism phases). I'm not saying they should mold to the casing that Prot Paladins are creating, but it does make Prot Pally odd since they're, practically, the only plate tanking class that will take some DPS gear over Dodge / Parry gear (so long as it's beneficial). Even though we could argue Hit / Mastery gear and the like are also traditional "DPS" gear - which I would have no problem rolling on even as a Blood DK.


Blood already does benefit from Haste. While Prot Warriors don't currently, that can be relatively easily fixed through many sources.
Reply Quote
01/29/2013 02:18 PMPosted by Slashlove
I think that leaves the problems with Blood DKs and Prot Warriors. These two classes still use the "traditional" tank stats with the only real DPS stats touched are Hit and Expertise (Prot can dip a little into Haste but it seems a bit irrelevant - more or less useful during Heroism phases). I'm not saying they should mold to the casing that Prot Paladins are creating, but it does make Prot Pally odd since they're, practically, the only plate tanking class that will take some DPS gear over Dodge / Parry gear (so long as it's beneficial). Even though we could argue Hit / Mastery gear and the like are also traditional "DPS" gear - which I would have no problem rolling on even as a Blood DK.


Blood already does benefit from Haste. While Prot Warriors don't currently, that can be relatively easily fixed through many sources.

Blood DKs seem to only benefit on rune regenerating when it comes to Haste since, IIRC (and it has been a while since I've played Blood), their GCD is locked to 1.5 sec.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
That doesn't become relevant - rune renegeration IS what the benefit needs to be on, because the gcd doesn't connect with the resource the way it does for Paladins.

IIRC, DK's may be one of the 1 sec gcd classes as well.
Edited by Slashlove on 1/29/2013 2:53 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Death Knight
13655
01/29/2013 02:43 PMPosted by Bassm
their GCD is locked to 1.5 sec.


It's 1sec across the board for all specs now.

And I think the only way crit for a blood DK would ever be considered "good" is if they made crit healing possible. But they couldn't tie it into the mastery because I can see that becoming "LOL" worthy at certain levels.
Edited by Cynbria on 1/29/2013 2:55 PM PST
Reply Quote
It's 1sec across the board for all specs now.

Ah okay.
That doesn't become relevant - rune renegeration IS what the benefit needs to be on, because the gcd doesn't connect with the resource the way it does for Paladins.

Fair enough. The question is how much Haste it would take to really make it beneficial, and where would the line have to be drawn between Haste and your "mitigation" stats. With Blood Tap and the possibility of Soul Leech, I don't struggle -too often- with rune regenerating. Then again, this only applies in lol5man.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
01/29/2013 02:53 PMPosted by Cynbria
And I think the only way crit for a blood DK would ever be considered "good" is if they made crit healing possible. But they couldn't tie it into the mastery because I can see that becoming "LOL" worthy at certain levels.

Passive that has a chance to instantly refresh a Rune when the ability crits?
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Death Knight
13655
01/29/2013 02:58 PMPosted by Arielle
Passive that has a chance to instantly refresh a Rune when the ability crits?


I think that could work to well for blood. Like, RNG Jesus over there.

A reduction of the rune CD maybe, by X% when you crit using say DS/HS/BB
Reply Quote
100 Orc Warrior
15285
I just wish haste was somewhat useful for warriors. Not to the point of it being great but stuff like Bloodlust does nothing for prot.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Or instead of a static chance on T5 talents based on use, it could be a guaranteed proc on crits (BT just gets crit charges on crits)

If you want to work crit into things without changing too much, that would be your best bet (crit refresh runes on top of T5 talents would be hilarious though)
Edited by Slashlove on 1/29/2013 3:37 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
15585
1) Avoidance stats are bad, in that they're ineffective ways to make your character better.

I think this is incorrect. All the math I've seen (for paladins anyway) shows that they're a bit worse in terms of reducing spike damage and relatively similar in terms of total damage reduction. It's really unfortunate that people very quickly migrate to a mindset where their top 1-2 stats are "good" and all the other stats are "bad". The reality is that the gap between the two is often (not always, but often) quite small.


Then you have a subset of paladins like me, who don't think "avoidance" is bad. Just that "dodge" in particular is bad (because it is). 7000 Dodge Rating is only like 7% dodge or something like that in my gear. That's what I consider fairly bad. So why not remove the ability for plate wearers to dodge and roll it into parry instead?
Reply Quote
01/29/2013 03:12 PMPosted by Cynbria
Passive that has a chance to instantly refresh a Rune when the ability crits?


I think that could work to well for blood. Like, RNG Jesus over there.

A reduction of the rune CD maybe, by X% when you crit using say DS/HS/BB

Actually, considering how most 2H weapons aren't really tank weapons (at least in 463 iLv), I kind of wish Crit or Haste had some benefit. I guess Haste sort of does.
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Warrior
0
I'd happily see dodge and parry go away entirely. The reason being? They're terribly boring and flavorless stats. More directly though I think that's partly a result of scaling issues, effectiveness, and reliability. On that note let's step back and reimagine a couple hypothetical "revision" scenarios.

The first one stems from scaling issues. Avoidance is an all-or-nothing proposition, and large volumes of avoidance being the norm results in tank-health swinging wildly depending on if and how many blows manage to connect (Crusade and Wrath era). Consequently because this damage greatly stressed tank health, the only sane response was to stack as much health as possible to maximize your TTL under worst case scenarios. GC and company ultimately decided that tanks dying in a few seconds wasn't really a good game design and has since responded by radically lowering total avoidance levels and ambient physical damage such that the overall damage remains largely the same but the damage is more spread out.

But what if avoidance wasn't all or nothing. What if avoiding a given attack only *reduced* the amount of damage it dealt to you based on "some factor" (for the time being we'll say it's static and just 50% reduction). That simple adjustment would mean that tanks *could* pack on much larger avoidance totals to achieve the largely same effect (thus your ratings would be less "invisible"), and a secondary effect is that avoidance would be much stronger at smoothing out incoming damage levels too.

Conclusion: By simply changing avoidance from an all-or-nothing effect, we can increase the effective scaling levels, *and* as a result its reliability in combat.

Moving on, let's look at the second aspect of avoidance, which is its effectiveness. Avoidance is in the same boat as armor in that it only works on physical damage, but unlike armor, has limitations with which physical attacks it's even applicable to. Under most circumstances this revolves around fight specific mechanics that avoidance would otherwise bypass or trivialize, so it makes sense in that light.

However, putting the first change into play we alter the dynamics here as well. Even though a given attack *has* to land, we could still "avoid" it and have the necessary mechanics play out as they're supposed to. That means that "Avoidance" can then come into play under the circumstances where it is currently moot (which for those of you keeping track, makes it much more valuable almost by default). But why stop there? Since avoidance is no longer an "all or nothing" proposition, why don't we enable the same "partial damage" effects for non-physical damage as well?

Conclusion: By allowing avoidance to be applicable to more (and "all" would be even better) forms of damage, we greatly increase its effectiveness in combat as a result, and thus its value to tanks.
Reply Quote
14 Dwarf Hunter
30
01/29/2013 03:12 PMPosted by Cynbria
Passive that has a chance to instantly refresh a Rune when the ability crits?


I think that could work to well for blood. Like, RNG Jesus over there.

A reduction of the rune CD maybe, by X% when you crit using say DS/HS/BB


the only thing they could do with crit is make it return more runic power. crits return +25% RP, or something along that line.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
01/29/2013 12:38 AMPosted by Darpalta
Parry haste was removed in cata, for mobs and players (if it ever existed for players).

It still exists for players. Get a class that can parry, go tank ten mobs, and note your autoattack time. It'll be roughly 50% faster.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Druid
6355
1) Avoidance stats are bad, in that they're ineffective ways to make your character better.

2) Avoidance stats are bad, in that they're boring or uninteresting ways to make your character better.


IMO, 1 is what saves us all from 2 right now. Active mitigation is a more fun way to tank than pre-MoP tanking; it's always dangerous to make claims about other players' opinions, but I really do think a large majority of tanks agree on that. Surviving attacks through your ability use is just more interesting than surviving attacks through something your gear does for you automatically.

But players aren't completely free to do what is fun -- we also have to do what is effective or we don't kill bosses. So it's good for us that avoidance stats are mechanically weak, because if they weren't, we'd have to use them *even though* they suck the fun out of our role compared to resource/AM/rotation supporting stats. Right now what is fun and what is effective coincide (well, hit and exp aren't *fun* exactly, but having your abilities consistently do the thing they're supposed to do doesn't suck).

"Boring but effective" is not something that players have the power to avoid, except by choosing to be less effective, which is not a viable choice. Only the devs can save us from being forced into boring-but-effective tactics (or gear choices, but in this case the gear choices create the tactics by providing increased resource flow) by not making them more effective than doing something fun in the first place.

So please, devs, if you're reading this thread, don't make 1 false unless you first find a way to make 2 false. Or we're all going to be dragged back into having the gear do the tanking rather than the player.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]