Remove Dodge/Parry

100 Dwarf Warrior
20560
I would love for Dodge/Parry to be removed and to implement something solely based on current DPS itemization. It allows for more gear drops that are not wasted and a more active play style. Tanking in MoP has been... amazing. Active mitigation is a blast and I'd love to see it even more re-enforced.

Now only if we can get rid of plate caster gear...
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100 Night Elf Death Knight
13655
01/29/2013 04:31 PMPosted by Bassm
Actually, considering how most 2H weapons aren't really tank weapons (at least in 463 iLv), I kind of wish Crit or Haste had some benefit. I guess Haste sort of does.


Agreed'd, but the I think crit is going to be tricky.

01/29/2013 05:04 PMPosted by Freph
the only thing they could do with crit is make it return more runic power. crits return +25% RP, or something along that line.


an extra 2-4 per crit? So an extra RS every 8-15 crits? Doesn't sound to bad on paper at least.
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85 Worgen Warlock
12070
Am I the only person who likes parry/dodge on gear?
-----
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
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10 Gnome Mage
9935
01/29/2013 10:48 PMPosted by Ontora
Am I the only person who likes parry/dodge on gear?


What am I? Tauren food?

I like avoidance stats. I like that dodge and parry have different DR curves and need to be adjusted and balanced against each other. It's not as simple as parry good, dodge bad, at least not if you actually care to do the math.

What I would like to see is dodge and parry have a meaningful difference. Right now they are effectively the same stat as far as inbound damage is concerned. While having a dodge be a complete null and having parry be a partial reduction would do that, then you would have no meaningful difference between parry and block.

I would suggest something like having a successful dodge apply an "unbalanced" debuff to the attacker, with an effect similar to unbalancing strike, or even like Scorpid Sting (the hit chance reduction one), but some tanks (da bears, and maybe monks?) dodge more than others. Of course, that could be alleviated somewhat by having the debuff duration be such that them dodgy buggers wouldn't gain an overpowered benefit from it. But it's still just a rough idea in my head.
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100 Orc Death Knight
14400
Is find fun dodging/parrying an attack.

Judge me.
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90 Draenei Warrior
10550
I just want Dodge/Parry to have some meaning in Active Mitigation rather than static stats.

MAKE THEM DO SOMETHING SHINY
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
01/30/2013 12:54 AMPosted by Zapwidget
I would suggest something like having a successful dodge apply an "unbalanced" debuff to the attacker, with an effect similar to unbalancing strike, or even like Scorpid Sting (the hit chance reduction one), but some tanks (da bears, and maybe monks?) dodge more than others. Of course, that could be alleviated somewhat by having the debuff duration be such that them dodgy buggers wouldn't gain an overpowered benefit from it. But it's still just a rough idea in my head.
Savage Defense.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
SWC
21385
I would be happy with dodge/parry being combined into a single stat, leather tanks get dodge from it plate tanks get parry.
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90 Pandaren Monk
15630
tbh .. I think monk's way of gearing much more interesting than any other tank.

Parry and dodge by itself are fun .. I mean, it's always fun to avoid a lot of attacks. But as a rating they feel boring.

I love how monks benefit from each stat differently.

- hit and exp increase the reliability of our resource generation
- haste increase how much resources we generate to maintain our defense mechanics
- crit buffs elusive brew

mastery is a little boring but I can live with that.

I think that the system where you actively work to earn your avoidance (cof, monks) is much more fun than a passive version.

I notice the difference between having my trinkets procc'd (a lot of crit), because I can see the elusive brew charges being generated faster, allowing me to use the skill more often. It changes my gameplay. Crit alone doesn't buff my defense .. it requires an action from me. That's why it's more interesting.

But increasing avoidance is simply boring .. You simply don't notice that you are avoiding 5-10% more attacks.

Imo, dodge/parry should be merged into 1 stat: Avoidance. And get rid of it as a rating.

And you would be able to buff your avoidance by using offensive stats. This way you would be able to use the same gear to tank or dps.

Mechanics like this:

Warrior
Expertise: In adittion to the regular effect, it grants you a chance of gaining Iniciative: your next heroic strike, will grant X% chance of avoiding the next 1-2 attacks.

Crit: could increase your critical block chance.

DK
haste: naturally increases rune regen

crit: increases the crit chance of your heals by a descent amount.

Just tossing random ideas .. but I think it's really valid to have more interesting ways of increasing our avoidance than "increases your dodge chance by 1%".
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100 Human Paladin
14245
01/29/2013 10:48 PMPosted by Ontora
Am I the only person who likes parry/dodge on gear?


Honest question: why do you like it?

And to be very clear, I'm not asking why you like dodge/parry. I think avoidance is really important for gameplay purposes. But why do you like dodge/parry on gear?

01/30/2013 12:54 AMPosted by Zapwidget
What I would like to see is dodge and parry have a meaningful difference.


If they insist upon keeping dodge/parry on gear this is really important, I think. Redundant stats are silly in the first place. They could literally rename one of them "Avoidance" and name the other one Even More Avoidance, except that it's made even worse since the names would have to swap based on your current gear setup and which is worth more for your specific loadout.

That said, I have trouble imagining how you make "interesting" avoidance stats. Most of the other niches are already filled, and a lot of the suggestions in this vein tend to take the form of "when you dodge/parry, SOMETHING_COOL happens."

If that's the case, couldn't you just:

1) link SOMETHING_COOL to any stat, with an appropriate proc chance?
2) itemize SOMETHING_COOL on gear directly itself?

Basically what I'm saying is that once you talk about "sprucing up" avoidance with additional benefits, it seems to me like you're implicitly agreeing that avoidance isn't really exciting enough to warrant being a stat in its own right. Given that, why not just scrap dodge/parry and make a new tanking stat that does the cool stuff?
Edited by Branar on 1/30/2013 10:53 AM PST
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14 Dwarf Hunter
30
01/29/2013 10:48 PMPosted by Ontora
Am I the only person who likes parry/dodge on gear?


i'd love D/P on gear, if it was even close to a viable strategy to gear for them.

that it's not makes them boring.
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85 Gnome Death Knight
12110
Honest question: why do you like it?

And to be very clear, I'm not asking why you like dodge/parry. I think avoidance is really important for gameplay purposes. But why do you like dodge/parry on gear?
Because I like having gear that is most certainly more tankier, then other gear that's more dpsier. I like the ability to control whether or not I'm gearing up passive mitigation vs active mitigation.
-----
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16260
Did I post in here already? ...Nope.

I agree that Dodge/Parry should go the way of the dinosaur, or at the very least take a permanent backseat. I much prefer the reliability of the active DPS model. I feel like I'm in control of my own survival rather than just stacking avoidance. With the demise of CTC, I feel that moving away from stacking Dodge/Parry is the next logical step.

Someone compared Dodge/Parry (rather fondly) to Critical. I like that comparison, but much like healers that resent the random nature of critical strikes, I despise the inherent unreliability of Dodge/Parry. The name of the game in tanking is control. You need to be able to read the situation and react accordingly. That's why we're often defined by our cooldowns during encounters, or hitting that magic number for uncrushable, or CTC. Crossing your fingers and hoping you don't take damage? ...That's been something we've been running away from since forever.

Active mitigation was a really good idea, Blizzard... Keep walking down that road, and don't look back.
Edited by Leucen on 1/30/2013 1:15 PM PST
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100 Human Paladin
14245
01/30/2013 12:32 PMPosted by Faelen
Because I like having gear that is most certainly more tankier, then other gear that's more dpsier.


I like this too. (I'm not sure that means it's worth keeping tank gear, necessarily, but I like it.)

But that's not an argument in favor of dodge/parry, it's an argument in favor of some tank-specific (and presumably, other dps-specific) stats. Why dodge and parry in particular?

01/30/2013 12:32 PMPosted by Faelen
I like the ability to control whether or not I'm gearing up passive mitigation vs active mitigation.


I'd actually question whether this is really healthy for the game. (Imagine if melee DPSers had the option of a stat that exclusively improved their auto-attack damage, and the sorts of trouble that might bring.)

But again, same question: why dodge and parry in particular as the two stats of choice? There are tons of options for "passive" tank stats - the druid mastery, for one, would be pretty easy to roll out to all tanks in stat form. (Obviously you'd need to give druids a new mastery, but my point is that it's an example of a perfectly reasonable "passive mitigation" tanking stat.)

To some extent, passive mitigation is always going to lack the visceral feel of active mitigation and be less "fun" - that's kind of why they're called "passive" stats. But I think dodge and parry have some unique issues among passive stats, which I've mostly already talked about. Because of that, I think keeping them more or less as they are really requires a unique defense.

If things like tank-specific stats or passive mitigation stats are important, okay. But I think we can have those things without a complicated DR curve. I think we can have those things on one stat (or, at the very least, two different kinds of passive mitigation/tank-specific stats). The gains you get from stacking the stat can be more easily detectable during play. And let's get a stat that's fun and interesting enough to merit being a stat in its own right, and doesn't require being used as a source of procs in order to be interesting.
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90 Human Paladin
7130
Dodge and parry stacking is the same as a mage that could put a wand in every slot and pull 50K dps just from white attacks. And all spells they cast only contribute a small amount more dps.

It's rediculous from a DPS standpoint, why is it accepted for a tank?
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100 Blood Elf Priest
15250
01/30/2013 01:56 PMPosted by Branar
But I think dodge and parry have some unique issues among passive stats, which I've mostly already talked about. Because of that, I think keeping them more or less as they are really requires a unique defense.


Inertia. :)
Edited by Nerfheals on 1/30/2013 3:56 PM PST
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100 Human Paladin
14245
Fair point. ;)

I think everybody (or most everybody) recognizes that we're likely stuck with dodge/parry at least until the end of the expansion, but it'd be nice if they'd reevaluate them for whatever expansion comes next.
Edited by Branar on 1/30/2013 4:08 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
10930
01/30/2013 12:54 AMPosted by Zapwidget
I would suggest something like having a successful dodge apply an "unbalanced" debuff to the attacker, with an effect similar to unbalancing strike, or even like Scorpid Sting (the hit chance reduction one), but some tanks (da bears, and maybe monks?) dodge more than others. Of course, that could be alleviated somewhat by having the debuff duration be such that them dodgy buggers wouldn't gain an overpowered benefit from it. But it's still just a rough idea in my head.


How does that make avoiding an attack more fun. Your suggestion is just another passive benefit to something that's already passive. Unless you meant we gain an attack which will apply that debuff. We know the benefits of dodge and parry but it doesn't change how we (paladins, at least) play. Revenge procs are fun. I'm really enjoying my warrior right now, especially on aoe pulls when I'm spamming Revenge and frantically trying to burn off rage faster than I can generate it.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
It's also worth noting that the usefulness of avoidance stats in the Active Mitigation paradigm is 100% dictated by the encounter.

Maybe not totally removing them, but at least going the way of Agi tanks - not putting it on gear but stil allowing reforging for it - would be more interesting I think.
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100 Night Elf Druid
6355
01/30/2013 12:54 AMPosted by Zapwidget
Right now they are effectively the same stat as far as inbound damage is concerned.


Maybe for you... There are five tanks, please keep that in mind when proposing tinkering with tank mechanics.

(Odd note: when I added (Dodge and Parry) to the above quote to clarify what Zap meant by "they", the system automatically removed his name from the quote. I guess they don't trust players to edit quotes responsibly... maybe wise. But it let me accidentally misattribute the below quote by quoting it from Branar's post instead, until I fixed it myself.)

01/30/2013 12:32 PMPosted by Faelen
Because I like having gear that is most certainly more tankier, then other gear that's more dpsier.


Why? Isn't that like saying you want to keep a separate set of gear just for dailies and trivial encounters? I don't always activate my tank spec, but when I do, I prefer to tank. When I can't do that (or I'm deliberately doing something really trivial for achievements or pets or whatever), I'd at least like to not have to carry two separate sets of gear for the *same* spec to perform in situations where my full toughness is unnecessary. It's kind of nice that all I really have to do is maul more and SD/FR less and voila, higher dps (at the cost of taking more damage too). I carry a second weapon with El Force specifically for Viscidus and aside from that I don't have to regear to slaughter the helpless. I think that's better than the alternative.
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