Remove Dodge/Parry

100 Human Warlock
20305
With the idea of merging gear, what about the possibility of Parry becoming a DPS stat? Perhaps a chance for an extra strike (a la Main Gauche and Strikes of Opportunity), keeping with the theme of being skillful with a weapon. We can also remove dodge from gear directly, allowing for reforge/procs/maybe some scaling off something.

That would give us six stats on non-Int plate: Crit, Haste, Mastery, Parry, Hit, Expertise. Then it becomes an issue of tuning Haste and Crit for the tanks (and lays the framework for interesting stat choices while removing hit/expertise caps, as they've mentioned as a possibility).

Edit: While it may not make Parry an interesting stat for tanks, it allows it to occur naturally on all gear, with any desirable combination of stats. From there, we can keep avoidance for those who like it, but retain the offense-leading-to-defense gearing that is becoming popular.
Edited by Serinicas on 1/30/2013 7:19 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
01/30/2013 07:10 PMPosted by Serinicas
Perhaps a chance for an extra strike (a la Main Gauche and Strikes of Opportunity), keeping with the theme of being skillful with a weapon.

But that happens when you parry something. A DPS ideally isn't having to parry anything.
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100 Human Warlock
20305
But that happens when you parry something. A DPS ideally isn't having to parry anything.

I mean change it entirely as a stat for DPS; essentially a Mastery-lite, except based on role, rather than spec. We could change the name and bring back "Weapon Skill" if need be. A Protection Warrior/Paladin/Death Knight with Weapon Skill gains Parry, an Arms Warrior or somesuch gains Strikes of Opportunity, a chance for an extra melee swing at some amount of weapon damage (or whathaveyou).

Plate DPS loses the ability to gear for Parry, but is that really a big deal?
Edited by Serinicas on 1/30/2013 8:38 PM PST
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10 Gnome Mage
9935
Maybe for you... There are five tanks, please keep that in mind when proposing tinkering with tank mechanics.


There are, which is why I specifically singled out bears and boozers. Even still, the fact that bears can't parry does not change the fact that dodge and parry both do the exact same thing. Both give a chance to negate an incoming physical attack. The fact that some tanks have more of one than the other doesn't really make a difference. In all cases it's D+P=A, and A is effectively constant across all tanks (outside of special effects).

Why? Isn't that like saying you want to keep a separate set of gear just for dailies and trivial encounters?


What's your point? Maybe you like having DPS stats be effective for tanking, but keep in mind there are 5 tanking specs when proposing tinkering with tank mechanics. Let's pretend though, that Blizzard did have a bad case of cranial flatulence and removed avoidance stats and made haste and crit viable stats for all tanks. That's great. Now, does Haste hold the same weight for Protection as it does for Arms and Fury? Is Crit as important to Paladin Protection as it is to Ret? Do Warrior tanks need to cap accuracy? Does Ret need to reach the parry cap on Expertise?

The answers there are no, and will always be no, and by being no, they ensure that a tank, if he does not wish to be halfassed, will carry an extra set of gear gemmed and enchanted with the proper DPS stats. If you don't like having to carry two sets of gear, and manage two sets of stats, good news, there are 2 tanking specs that could potentially fill that bill. For the rest of us, why should our enjoyment of what is be less valid that other's potential enjoyment of what might be?
Edited by Zapwidget on 1/31/2013 12:24 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
01/30/2013 09:59 PMPosted by Zapwidget
The answers there are no, and will always be no, and by being no, they ensure that a tank, if he does not wish to be halfassed, will carry an extra set of gear gemmed and enchanted with the proper DPS stats. If you don't like having to carry two sets of gear, and manage two sets of stats, good news, there are 2 tanking specs that could potentially fill that bill.

Attempting to Feral in Guardian gear is just a really bad idea.
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10 Gnome Mage
9935
01/30/2013 11:59 PMPosted by Arielle
Attempting to Feral in Guardian gear is just a really bad idea.


I figured as much, but wanted to run with that person's idea of not having to carry multiple gear sets.
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90 Orc Death Knight
tys
9350
I'd support this move. Loot tables are too crowded as is.

Certain things may have to be changed (ex: haste scaling for blood dks for example), but on the whole, I think it would be a step forward.
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90 Pandaren Monk
8120
Honestly, this is pretty much how monk tanks are already designed earlier. as I said, If you like active mitigation better, try a monk tank.

We get to have fun and push buttons, we can't just be bored and sit there with a finger up our !@#. (and I am a former warrior tank, monk tanking is much more enjoyable)
Edited by Sekushina on 1/31/2013 1:37 AM PST
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100 Night Elf Druid
6355
01/31/2013 12:21 AMPosted by Zapwidget
I figured as much, but wanted to run with that person's idea of not having to carry multiple gear sets.


FOR ONE SPEC. Did you not read that part? I'm fine with having separate gear for another spec (I'd better be, since my offspec has a different primary stat!). Carrying a set of tank gear, a set of "DPS in tank spec" gear, AND a set of offspec gear... not gonna happen unless Blizzard introduces a 36 slot garment bag or something. The fact that the tank gear doesn't completely suck for farming/dailies is a good thing.

01/30/2013 09:59 PMPosted by Zapwidget
Let's pretend though, that Blizzard did have a bad case of cranial flatulence and removed avoidance stats and made haste and crit viable stats for all tanks.


Does this actually require pretending? Well, the first part does, but I thought the second part was where we are *now*. And it was Blizzard contemplating rolling that back and making us all go back to stacking avoidance that prompted threads like this.

What tank performs best by stacking avoidance stats right now, in 5.1?
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85 Night Elf Warrior
0
01/30/2013 11:59 PMPosted by Arielle
The answers there are no, and will always be no, and by being no, they ensure that a tank, if he does not wish to be halfassed, will carry an extra set of gear gemmed and enchanted with the proper DPS stats. If you don't like having to carry two sets of gear, and manage two sets of stats, good news, there are 2 tanking specs that could potentially fill that bill.

Attempting to Feral in Guardian gear is just a really bad idea.


But is it better than guardian in guardian gear when not actually tanking anything?
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90 Night Elf Monk
8430
What tank performs best by stacking avoidance stats right now, in 5.1?


Warrior is the only one I know of personally, due to how Revenge works. When they dodge/parry an attack, they reset the CD of Revenge, which means they generate more rage. Also, with the Hold the Line glyph it does 50% more damage after a parry. So parry is pretty huge for them, both mitigation and damage wise.
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85 Gnome Death Knight
12110
FOR ONE SPEC. Did you not read that part? I'm fine with having separate gear for another spec (I'd better be, since my offspec has a different primary stat!). Carrying a set of tank gear, a set of "DPS in tank spec" gear, AND a set of offspec gear... not gonna happen unless Blizzard introduces a 36 slot garment bag or something. The fact that the tank gear doesn't completely suck for farming/dailies is a good thing.
You kinda missed my original point.

I never said I wanted every tank to run around with two sets of gear. I said I liked it being an option.
-----
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
But is it better than guardian in guardian gear when not actually tanking anything?


Assuming it's a transition long enough that Vengeance will be off for most of it, yes - if what you're asking is Guardian attempting to Feral in Guardian spec. Using Guardian gear and Feral spec is definitely better than Guardian in Guardian spec, but that's not really any kind of normal comparison.

Feral's weird, and HotW makes EVERYTHING weirder.

I'd support this move. Loot tables are too crowded as is.


This wouldn't actually help "loot crowding".

With the idea of merging gear, what about the possibility of Parry becoming a DPS stat? Perhaps a chance for an extra strike (a la Main Gauche and Strikes of Opportunity), keeping with the theme of being skillful with a weapon. We can also remove dodge from gear directly, allowing for reforge/procs/maybe some scaling off something.


Adding an extra stat, and having it richochet on damage dealers, seems like entirely the wrong thing to do.

But again, same question: why dodge and parry in particular as the two stats of choice? There are tons of options for "passive" tank stats - the druid mastery, for one, would be pretty easy to roll out to all tanks in stat form. (Obviously you'd need to give druids a new mastery, but my point is that it's an example of a perfectly reasonable "passive mitigation" tanking stat.)


That can be even simpler - it's just saying "Remove Dodge/Parry, bring Bonus Armour back".

And really, if we're talking a tradeoff between passive mitigation and active, Bonus Armour vs Hit/Exp/Mastery makes a LOT more sense than dodge and parry (which aren't really mitigation). It would also do a lot to improve visual feedback of the stat
Edited by Slashlove on 1/31/2013 11:35 AM PST
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10 Gnome Mage
9935
FOR ONE SPEC. Did you not read that part? I'm fine with having separate gear for another spec


I'm sorry. Several years of carrying gear for two specs and only using one spec and using "Ret" gear in Protection spec kind of dulled my senses to your proposition that a tank would have to carry a complete third set of gear. That your 2nd spec set using a completely differnt primary than your tank spec is a choice you deliberately made, and is a choice that's not even available to half the tanking specs anyway.

What you seem to suffer from here is a complete and overbearing case of gross generalization.

Does this actually require pretending? Well, the first part does, but I thought the second part was where we are *now*. And it was Blizzard contemplating rolling that back and making us all go back to stacking avoidance that prompted threads like this.

What tank performs best by stacking avoidance stats right now, in 5.1?


Honestly? Warriors do, depending on what your basis for comparing "best" is. More avoidance is more Revenge is more rage for Active Mitigation. Is it the best strategy for a warrior? No, but it works better for a warrior than it does for any other tank, and therefor makes Warrior the spec that perform best by stacking avoidance.

If they were to roll Dodge and Parry into one Avoidance stat, and throw +Armor on tanking gear, I'd be fine with that. If they were to completely reinvent avoidance completely and keep the same name, like they did with Spirit, I'd be fine with that. The problem with what a few of you are proposing is that you aren't just saying to get rid of avoidance. You're advocating supplanting avoidance with DPS stats.

Crit is neat. Crit is fun for everyone. Haste, on the other hand, haste is boring. It's watching paint dry. Maybe I exaggerate a little. In reality, haste is like watching paint dry <faster>. I'm sure at a certain point, paint can dry fast enough to be entertaining, but I don't imagine getting enough haste to see that happen. You see, I play a warrior. All of my single-target rotational abilities either have no CD or have a reset proc. The only attack I use regularly with a CD is my AoE/Debuff. I gain nothing from melee swings. Haste, as such, is an especially boring stat and would require a complete rebuilding of my preferred spec to be anything approaching useful and more interesting than avoidance.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Crit is neat. Crit is fun for everyone. Haste, on the other hand, haste is boring. It's watching paint dry. Maybe I exaggerate a little. In reality, haste is like watching paint dry <faster>. I'm sure at a certain point, paint can dry fast enough to be entertaining, but I don't imagine getting enough haste to see that happen. You see, I play a warrior. All of my single-target rotational abilities either have no CD or have a reset proc. The only attack I use regularly with a CD is my AoE/Debuff. I gain nothing from melee swings. Haste, as such, is an especially boring stat and would require a complete rebuilding of my preferred spec to be anything approaching useful and more interesting than avoidance.


All it would actually take is to make Revenge procs based on autoattack instead of your own Parry.

This wouldn't preserve AoE Revenge spam, but that's basically an aberration as far as design goes anyway. If they needed to preserve that, they could even a one-use proc to Enrage.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
01/31/2013 12:18 PMPosted by Zapwidget
If they were to roll Dodge and Parry into one Avoidance stat, and throw +Armor on tanking gear, I'd be fine with that. If they were to completely reinvent avoidance completely and keep the same name, like they did with Spirit, I'd be fine with that. The problem with what a few of you are proposing is that you aren't just saying to get rid of avoidance. You're advocating supplanting avoidance with DPS stats.
Yeah, I agree with what you're saying here. Having Dodge and Parry is kind of redundant.

Bonus Armor shouldn't come back unless Guardians get a new Mastery though, since it then becomes the god stat.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
In theory, it'd be possible for them to make Nature's Guardian only work off Base Armor (or discount Bonus).
Edited by Slashlove on 1/31/2013 6:08 PM PST
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10 Gnome Mage
9935
01/31/2013 12:35 PMPosted by Slashlove
All it would actually take is to make Revenge procs based on autoattack instead of your own Parry.


It's called Revenge, not "I'm hitting you and I want to hit you again." I trust I don't need to bust out a mw.com link to the word "revenge." Besides, Arms and Fury also place little value on Haste, so foisting it upon Protection would be laughable.

It would also still be boring. For Paladins, you have a visceral, obvious representation of the affect haste has when it changes the numbers in your tooltips. DK's can see the effect haste has in the speed of rune regen. Haste increasing autoattack speed for more chances at Revenge procs would be increasing a chance of a chance, and while a 30% increase of a set number is noticeable, a 30% increase of a X% chance is not as noticeable. And the stat would still be as boring as some or purporting avoidance to be.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
It's called Revenge, not "I'm hitting you and I want to hit you again." I trust I don't need to bust out a mw.com link to the word "revenge."


If the game was that literal, there'd be 20,000 different things going on with Warriors alone.
It can be interpreted as Revenge easily enough (just in a slightly more general sense of unleashing vengeance on a foe in the tooltip).
Besides, the second part about trying it to Enrage (through Critical Blocks) as well would satisfy that "requirement" (lol), or "flavour" of being hit to proc some of it more often.

It would also still be boring. For Paladins, you have a visceral, obvious representation of the affect haste has when it changes the numbers in your tooltips. DK's can see the effect haste has in the speed of rune regen. Haste increasing autoattack speed for more chances at Revenge procs would be increasing a chance of a chance, and while a 30% increase of a set number is noticeable, a 30% increase of a X% chance is not as noticeable. And the stat would still be as boring as some or purporting avoidance to be.


But if you make that argument, Revenge is just as boring now with Parry, more so that it already would be with Haste. The big thing that really makes it strike across is that you get a LOT of Rage and hit it VERY OFTEN with enough mobs, and regardless of tooltip, THAT is the noticeable aspect, and there's no reason that would need to change if they wanted to preserve it. It still wouldn't need to be tied to Parry.
Edited by Slashlove on 2/1/2013 1:23 AM PST
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10 Gnome Mage
9935
02/01/2013 01:15 AMPosted by Slashlove
But if you make that argument, Revenge is just as boring now with Parry, more so that it already would be with Haste.


Is it? Would it? Parry has an audible cue when it happens. It has a visible and relevant number on the character sheet, in addition to having the known, behind the scenes effect on other abilities. All haste would have, and could have, is that behind the scenes effect.
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