Second trinket for Holy PvE

90 Blood Elf Paladin
13820
Hello! I looted the 496 Spirits of the Sun today and was wondering if any of you who already have it could share your thoughts on the trinket.
I'm currently running 476 Qin-Xi's Polarizing Seal with a double upgraded Relic of Chi-Ji and I gotta say I love both of them cause of their short ICD (45 secs), whereas the SotS has a 105s ICD.

So yeah, thoughts please? <3
Edited by Oblivion on 1/30/2013 12:17 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9300
Chi Ji and Sun trinket are your best bet. HPals like the static intel and spirit proc.

Qin-xi's is pretty bad
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13820
01/29/2013 09:12 PMPosted by Arte
Qin-xi's is pretty bad


What do you base this statement on? Do you have all 3 trinkets? Have you used this particular trinket?
Qin-xi/Chi-ji is probably the best combo for challenge modes, for example. Short ICD, good mana regen, increased heals and HShock crits.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16240
All 3 are good but I'd say Spirits and Qin-xi's. However, if you only have the LFR Qin-xi's, you should probably keep the relic until you get a better polarizing seal.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8030
My $.02:

01/29/2013 09:12 PMPosted by Arte
Chi Ji and Sun trinket are your best bet. HPals like the static intel and spirit proc.

I wouldn't go on to say that Qin-xi is bad, actually when you get to heroic bis it's qin-xi and sun. Personally I much prefer static int and spirit proc, though, if i'm given the choice. Less rng with healing power is better. Plus, chi ji gives more average mp5 then normal qin-xi, so I'd say the choice is pretty clear for you
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13820
Used spirits/chi-ji in the raid tonight and I found myself healing more, not sure it was the mana regen cause my mana was the same in every fight like when I used qin-xi.
I'll just have to wait for the normal mode version before the comparison is fair. Thanks!
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
Chi Ji and Sun trinket are your best bet. HPals like the static intel and spirit proc.

Qin-xi's is pretty bad


I wouldn't say Qin-xi's is objectively bad, but it's blatantly inferior to the other two, yes. I plan on passing on the heroic Qin-xi's in favor of keeping my Relic of Chi Ji and the Spirits of the Sun that *eventually* will drop for me.

I'm not really concerned with the average Intellect value of a trinket if it only has a 40%ish uptime. I mean, if there is a tremendous discrepancy then yeah, but there isn't. Spirit procs are basically the same thing as static Spirit, but an Intellect proc is far far inferior to static Intellect as a healer. A proc would have to be extremely overtuned in order to be worth taking over a reliable alternative, and that just doesn't happen here IMHO.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13820

I'm not really concerned with the average Intellect value of a trinket if it only has a 40%ish uptime.


I'm assuming you're talking about Qin-xi, if so how much uptime would you say Chi-ji has? Cause they always proc at the same time for me (Qin-xi and Chi-Ji)
The thing that bothers me about the Sun trinket is that it procs off healing done (note: healing, not overhealing), as opposed to heals casted, so if no one takes damage I will never see that damn thing proc
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8030
01/31/2013 01:20 PMPosted by Oblivion
I'm assuming you're talking about Qin-xi, if so how much uptime would you say Chi-ji has? Cause they always proc at the same time for me (Qin-xi and Chi-Ji)

Chi Ji is a spirit proc, tho, wheras Qin-xi is int proc. Pretty huge difference, as we really don't care if our spirit comes in the form of procs or static numbers, it all averages out over the course of the fight. Int procs, however, are a different beast. Not having an int proc during heavy damage can really hurt. That's why many pallies prefer static int+spirit proc trinkets.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
Chi-Ji has a roughly 40-45% uptime on its Spirit proc.

The three best Holy trinkets are Relic of Chi-Ji, Spirits of the Sun (any version), and Qin-xi's (only the H version really merits consideration against the other two). H Spirits is undeniably #1, with H Qin-xi's and Relic fighting for the #2 spot (I've made my opinion clear, but to reiterate, I don't see how Qin-xi's is powerful enough to overcome the RNG factor).

I'm fairly certain that Spirits of the Sun does in fact proc off of overheals, it's phrased differently because it procs off of HoT ticks and not merely heal casts like Relic (although I could've sworn I saw Relic proc off of EF ticks? idk... I really don't care that much about trinket mechanics when they're both extremely good).
Edited by Tailias on 1/31/2013 3:09 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13820
01/31/2013 03:08 PMPosted by Corvala
Chi Ji is a spirit proc, tho, wheras Qin-xi is int proc. Pretty huge difference, as we really don't care if our spirit comes in the form of procs or static numbers, it all averages out over the course of the fight. Int procs, however, are a different beast. Not having an int proc during heavy damage can really hurt. That's why many pallies prefer static int+spirit proc trinkets.


Why it's up for every healer to decide which trinket fits which fight. Having Qin-xi and not using it in, say, Tsulong, is an awful choice.


I'm fairly certain that Spirits of the Sun does in fact proc off of overheals.


Yea I just sat in the Shrine spamming stuff and it went off. Pretty misleading wording right there.


The three best Holy trinkets are Relic of Chi-Ji, Spirits of the Sun (any version), and Qin-xi's

They're the only three trinkets in this tier lol. Anyone good would never, ever, ever, consider using an on-use trinket for healing. Ever.

Idk, I was doing over 80k hps on like every fight with RF Qin and Chi, and I was doing over 80k on every fight with Chi and Spirits. I'll notice a difference when I finally get normal mode Qin and i upgrade it.
Edited by Oblivion on 1/31/2013 9:52 PM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095

The three best Holy trinkets are Relic of Chi-Ji, Spirits of the Sun (any version), and Qin-xi's

They're the only three trinkets in this tier lol. Anyone good would never, ever, ever, consider using an on-use trinket for healing. Ever.


What on-use trinkets exist this tier? The only ones I can think of are the VP Spirit ones (and the trash drop that's a clone of one of the VP ones). They're pretty good, but the Spirit on-use is underbudgeted compared to the options I listed. I use the Shado-Pan VP one because Spirits of the Sun does not exist for me - I have Vuhdo autofire it so it's essentially a proc that's guaranteed to proc off of any heal I cast in-combat.

If I didn't have faith every single week "this week I'll get Spirits of the Sun on either normal or LFR!", I'd just buy the 496 VP Int/Spirit trinket from the new daily hub (idk what the name is).

Idk, I was doing over 80k hps on like every fight with RF Qin and Chi, and I was doing over 80k on every fight with Chi and Spirits. I'll notice a difference when I finally get normal mode Qin and i upgrade it.


If you only care about the average, and are okay with the int proc sometimes happening during a lull in damage when you're regenning or healing very lightly and then having no int proc when the heavy damage occurs... then go ahead and use Qin-xi's. RNG is not your friend, be warned :-P

Is it going to make or break you? No, it's still a decent trinket, but definitely inferior to something with similar stats that is configured in a more reliable manner. Healing is largely about control.
Edited by Tailias on 1/31/2013 10:27 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13820
You must heal 25's cause there's no such thing as a break from healing in 10 man's, and even if you're 'unlucky' and that trinket procs while you don't need to heal, you should still use Holy Shock to build up HoPo, mastery shield and an IoF proc for when you do need to heal. That's what I do at least

01/31/2013 10:25 PMPosted by Tailias
Healing is largely about control.


Slightly off topic, but why would you spec into Divine Purpose if you think healing is about control?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13900
For regen:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApxcN9CJscOfdGZ5UnV3OUdoYUhPaVZ1QnVBb013NWc&usp=sharing

Spirits and Quin-Xi for throughput.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
I HAVE TO EAT CROW.

I had the normal Qin-xi's numbers in my head as the heroic numbers :-(

The Heroic version by all accounts averages out to a reasonable upgrade over the Relic. At 2/2, the proc is 3935 Intellect for 20 seconds, 15% chance to proc off of any direct heal or HoT, with a 45 second ICD. Even somewhat generously giving the trinket 6 seconds to proc after the ICD is up (so it's up 20/51 of the time), that's 1543 Intellect. Compare to a 2/2 Relic of Chi-Ji's passive 1246 - that's a significant upgrade, and worth the RNG.

If you're not using the 502 (or 506... or 510...) version, then it becomes a much less compelling comparison.

02/01/2013 04:43 PMPosted by Oblivion
You must heal 25's cause there's no such thing as a break from healing in 10 man's, and even if you're 'unlucky' and that trinket procs while you don't need to heal, you should still use Holy Shock to build up HoPo, mastery shield and an IoF proc for when you do need to heal. That's what I do at least


I don't literally mean 'stand there and do nothing', unless it's an odd fight. I mean a break in heavy healing.

01/31/2013 10:25 PMPosted by Tailias
Healing is largely about control.


Slightly off topic, but why would you spec into Divine Purpose if you think healing is about control?


Apples and oranges, because Divine Purpose vs. Holy Avenger is a much different comparison than two trinkets are are very similar, just one is higher itemized but granted in an unreliable fashion while the other is more ideal but has lower overall values.

Saying "I always avoid RNG in favor of reliability" regardless of the average is just as ludicrous as blindly taking whatever averages out to a higher Intellect value.

Like I said though. Derp on my part because I wasn't paying attention...
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13820
For regen:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApxcN9CJscOfdGZ5UnV3OUdoYUhPaVZ1QnVBb013NWc&usp=sharing

Spirits and Quin-Xi for throughput.


THANK YOU! Finally someone replies and backs up their claims. Exactly what I was looking for.



Apples and oranges, because Divine Purpose vs. Holy Avenger is a much different comparison than two trinkets are are very similar, just one is higher itemized but granted in an unreliable fashion while the other is more ideal but has lower overall values.

Saying "I always avoid RNG in favor of reliability" regardless of the average is just as ludicrous as blindly taking whatever averages out to a higher Intellect value.


I still would like to know why you'd choose Divine Purpose, since you seem to have missed my question in your guide.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13900
Holy Avenger will provide you more throughput IF there is enough bursty damage but it takes hella regen to maintain, Divine Purpose is the more mana friendly alternative since it's essentially free HP, whereas you have to work pretty hard for the HP with HA, specially if you don't have PvE 4P because then you are left with ToR/HR as HP generating spells those 6 seconds that HS is on CD. Don't get me wrong, it's an amazing talent, but you need mana and you need to be very very good with your spell usage, a holy light or a DL/FoL on anyone but your beacon target is a HUGE hps loss. It's not black and white, on some encounters one talent is better than the other and the other way around.

SW is just plain horse!@#$ though, SPECIALLY with the 4P, a 2 sec cd on HS is just meh, there is nothing constructive to be done in those 2 seconds if you factor in latency and if you do decide to cast something you can just as well not be specced into it because with latency any cast will delay your next HS after it's off CD.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13820
But in order to make DP work you need to use 1 or 2 HoPo EF, right? Is it really worth it? Losing 50k or 30k instant healing + like 10k worth in hots + a 40k weaker mastery shield just in hopes of a proc that has a higher chance of not happening than it does to happen? Wouldn't it be better to spec Sacred Shield instead of EF and just toss around WoGs?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13900
Why would you "need" to use one or two? You heal with how many holy power the situation requires. The chance to proc DP scales with how many HP you spent, ie it's a higher chance with 3 HP.

The benefit of EF is that it applies and refreshes IH every time it ticks and it's a constant transfer to beacon.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13820
02/02/2013 07:09 AMPosted by Miskatonic
The chance to proc DP scales with how many HP you spent, ie it's a higher chance with 3 HP.


Where'd you get this info from? The tooltip doesn't say the more HP you spend the higher the chance
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