Healer balance - What's wrong

90 Human Priest
12445
1) You're not using Spirit Shell (except you are! According to your logs...)
2) You have too many healers (why are you 3 healing these encounters?)

Never said i wasn't using spirit shell. We 3 heal encounters because viable offspecs for damage are not present.

3) You may be "pure Atonement healing spam," but you're also dead last on the meters in the fights where all you do is spam Atonement and do nothing else (literally, nothing else) and effectively being carried, so far as the healing requirements go, by your Druid and Paladin co-healers; you are STILL using Spirit Shell, PoH, and Binding Heal on other fights where you claim you are "pure Atonement healing spam

I just reviewed the logs, and I think you are missing what the meaning of dead last is. Dead last is, at least in my mind, finishing a long way out from your other healers. That isn't the case in any of these logs. The worst case I've found I finish at 3rd within 3% of top.

01/29/2013 02:51 AMPosted by Tiriél
7) You're really bad at using your Spirit Shell for Unseen Strike on Blade Lord.

Never said I use SS on Unseen Strike. I don't. If someone is in eminent danger of death, they get a shield. And cascade/penance after unseen to cut the edge off the damage. That makes up a small portion of my casts, the other 90%+ I'm atonement, and I smoke the others.

8) You're really bad about using Spirit Shell for Rain of Blades. You're also using Atonement on a fight with a huge damage modifier. Again, you can't claim that an ability is "OP" when you're basing that claim on a fight with a huge damage modifier that causes the ability to double-dip.

LOL. Are we looking at the same logs? From what I see rain of blades is being absorbed to the tune of 4 million in phase 2. I don't SS it in phase 1, so if that's what you're referring to lol.

9) If you can be Holy for Garalon, given your inefficient use of Spirit Shell on every other fight I've looked at in your logs, you can be Holy for every single one of those other fights. The only reason why you're not is that you think Disc is OP.

re: Look at my logs for about a month ago. I started all of MV as holy, and HoF as holy. Disc simply performed better and felt a lot better mana wise.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/29/2013 12:03 PMPosted by Nemockulous
LOL. Are we looking at the same logs? From what I see rain of blades is being absorbed to the tune of 4 million in phase 2. I don't SS it in phase 1, so if that's what you're referring to lol.


Why -wouldn't- you SS RoB? You realize RoB can go out when there's a Korthik (sp?) strike at the same time? That's the kiss of death for whoever gets it. Also, RoB is buffed by the Menders, so if you use Spirit Shell, you ensure no one will die. Why WOULDN'T you use Spirit shell when the fight is DESIGNED for its use?

Yes, you're bad at using Spirit Shell for RoB because you don't use it until P2. If you can get away with doing nothing but Atonement spam for that first phase, you should be DPS and let the healers do their job, since you're apparently unwilling to do yours.

re: Look at my logs for about a month ago. I started all of MV as holy, and HoF as holy. Disc simply performed better and felt a lot better mana wise.


Quite frankly, that isn't the point. You're butchering the spec, sitting around doing nothing but Atonement and claiming that somehow you're the best healer in your guild. Newsflash: You're not. Even if you're high on the meters, the other healers are doing more for the raid than you are, based on the logs I'm looking at. If you're better at Holy, then for god's sake, go Holy. You can do more DPS as Holy in Chastise, and if your reaction time is better, then you'll bring a lot more to your raid than a Disc Priest who apparently doesn't know how to use half his buttons.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12265
01/29/2013 12:03 PMPosted by Nemockulous
Never said I use SS on Unseen Strike. I don't.


Lol...

01/29/2013 12:03 PMPosted by Nemockulous
I don't SS it in phase 1


Lol...

01/29/2013 12:03 PMPosted by Nemockulous
The worst case I've found I finish at 3rd within 3% of top.


Lol...

Why are they bringing you at all?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
11430
Why -wouldn't- you SS RoB? You realize RoB can go out when there's a Korthik (sp?) strike at the same time?


I don't think I've actually ever seen that.

I will also add that I think it's fine to almost exclusively atonement heal when you outgear content/it's on farm, especially when you're forced to 3heal due to roster or other reasons. Because really, there's no point in fighting over what little healing needs to be done when you can contribute better damage to the raid than your other healers (especially since you can heal at the same time).

That said, it'd be better in the long run to try and make one of the healers get a legitimate dps spec
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/29/2013 02:23 PMPosted by Icecreamsoup
Why -wouldn't- you SS RoB? You realize RoB can go out when there's a Korthik (sp?) strike at the same time?


I don't think I've actually ever seen that.


Yeah, it's happened before. You can also end up with a RoB (at least in 10 man) with a healer in an Amber Trap that no one can release because you're all debuffed (depending on how you handle the trappers, and when they release).
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100 Human Paladin
14055
01/29/2013 10:59 AMPosted by Evry
Starting with Spirit Shell, Spirit Shell is not overpowered. Its cooldown is questionable, given the current tier, but all it does is toggle some spells to shield instead of heal.


As an aside, this is blatantly incorrect. You haven't really looked at what Spirit Shell actually does and how it scales. It does NOT simply turn your heal into a shield. It turns your heal into a shield at a rate that scales linearly with crit AND mastery. It's insane.

So, if you had 20% crit, your SS gives you 1.2x the bubble as your spell would have healed for.
If you have 20% crit and 40% mastery, your SS gives you 1.2*1.4 = 1.68 times the bubble your spell would have healed for. They're removing the mastery part, so it'll still be good, just not wildly OP.

EDIT: I forgot to include Divine Aegis scaling. I think SS scales with that too, so you can tack on another 1.3 multiplier to PoH. In 5.2, it'll just be your crit% times 0.3 as the multiplier, which is how it works for non-PoH shells now.
Edited by Dekkar on 1/29/2013 3:47 PM PST
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90 Human Priest
12445
01/29/2013 02:23 PMPosted by Icecreamsoup
Why -wouldn't- you SS RoB? You realize RoB can go out when there's a Korthik (sp?) strike at the same time?


I don't think I've actually ever seen that.

I will also add that I think it's fine to almost exclusively atonement heal when you outgear content/it's on farm, especially when you're forced to 3heal due to roster or other reasons. Because really, there's no point in fighting over what little healing needs to be done when you can contribute better damage to the raid than your other healers (especially since you can heal at the same time).

That said, it'd be better in the long run to try and make one of the healers get a legitimate dps spec


This. I've never seen them both go out at the same time, and in any case, when the strike goes out they get a shield from me for that reason.

The reason why the other healers aren't speccing for damage is because they aren't viable gear wise. Hpaladin needs a completely new set of gear to make that offspec worth it, and Rdruid requires a good bit of reworking to get viable (not to mention boomkin is a tad low). So for this reason we often err on the side of extra healing, with atonement.
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90 Human Priest
12445
01/29/2013 03:42 PMPosted by Dekkar
Starting with Spirit Shell, Spirit Shell is not overpowered. Its cooldown is questionable, given the current tier, but all it does is toggle some spells to shield instead of heal.


As an aside, this is blatantly incorrect. You haven't really looked at what Spirit Shell actually does and how it scales. It does NOT simply turn your heal into a shield. It turns your heal into a shield at a rate that scales linearly with crit AND mastery. It's insane.

So, if you had 20% crit, your SS gives you 1.2x the bubble as your spell would have healed for.
If you have 20% crit and 40% mastery, your SS gives you 1.2*1.4 = 1.68 times the bubble your spell would have healed for. They're removing the mastery part, so it'll still be good, just not wildly OP.

EDIT: I forgot to include Divine Aegis scaling. I think SS scales with that too, so you can tack on another 1.3 multiplier to PoH. In 5.2, it'll just be your crit% times 0.3 as the multiplier, which is how it works for non-PoH shells now.


I think ultimately removing both the static Aegis and the mastery will be a tad too much in the negative direction. But such is life, blizzard almost always ends up balancing things like a yoyo.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
7725

Second contributor: Atonement
Atonement. We as disc identify with it, but how strong should it be? I perform on Ta'Yak as a pure atonement priest. That is I only case Smite, Holy Fire, and Penance on the boss, with the occasional shield, and the occasional friendly Penance/Cascade on the raid when in phase 2. Should I come remotely close to matching other healers output? No. Do I? Yes, and win by a large margin.

Atonement should be a trade-off. The utility of a class that can bring 35k DPS when actively DPSing as well as 35k HPS is such a strong argument that it is all you become. Atonement is also too strong for it's own good.


Inb4 monks doing 45k+ dps in 5.2.
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90 Human Priest
5860
01/29/2013 03:42 PMPosted by Dekkar
As an aside, this is blatantly incorrect. You haven't really looked at what Spirit Shell actually does and how it scales. It does NOT simply turn your heal into a shield. It turns your heal into a shield at a rate that scales linearly with crit AND mastery. It's insane.

Thank you, but I know exactly how Spirit Shell works. 1.3 factor is there for Divine Aegis, which is less than the 1.5 PoH would normally have. Crit factor is there to account for your crit rating on heals, since your absorbs don't crit. It's the same as if you averaged PoH's value over many casts with crit factored in. The mastery is there because it's Disc's mastery to boost absorbs. Mastery may be scaling way too high with too high a base, but that is an issue with Mastery being imbalanced and affecting Spirit Shell, not an innate issue with spirit shell.

5.2 removing Mastery from spirit shell may work, but it's a bad design choice, especially coupled with removing guaranteed DA from PoH. Mastery will only be useful for PW:S and the small amount it gets from crit in SS calculations (unless they keep a guaranteed ((1+M)*0.5) factor for SS PoH+DA).
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12950
Spirit Shell was a dumb idea from the get-go. Discipline already had both the ability to pre-shield and a short cooldown healing burst. It didn't need a combination of both added.

In terms of Atonement healing, let's say our Discipline Priest does half the dps of an actual dps. In a 10-man, you probably have 2 tanks, 6 dps, 2 healers. If the tanks do 75% of the dps of actual dps, so you're increasing the raid's total damage by ~6.6%.

In a 25-man, you have 2 tanks, 6 healers, 17 dps. So our Atonement healer is increasing raid dps by ~2.7%.

Bloodlust will add about 4% to your raid's dps over 5 minutes.
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100 Night Elf Druid
6355
In a 25-man, you have 2 tanks, 6 healers, 17 dps. So our Atonement healer is increasing raid dps by ~2.7%.


Sure, but with the increased healer slots there's no reason you couldn't have 2 or 3 dps-healers (some combination of atonement and eminence).

Doing two roles *at once* is the one situation where reviving the hybrid tax would actually be legitimate, but instead, one of the dps healers also has overpowered shields that let them do *more* healing than other healing specs. No wonder there are nerfs incoming.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/29/2013 06:20 PMPosted by Calonderiel
one of the dps healers also has overpowered shields that let them do *more* healing than other healing specs.


It's not that we have a greater potential for healing than you do, Calo. It's that our healing addresses the incoming damage before your healing can do so. As a result, if the incoming damage is weak, you will have nothing to heal.

The shields themselves are not overpowered, but Blizzard has yet to address the reason why people were able to abuse Divine Aegis to the extent that they were - and that is primarily a mana issue, not a shield strength issue.
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100 Human Paladin
14055
01/29/2013 05:20 PMPosted by Evry
5.2 removing Mastery from spirit shell may work, but it's a bad design choice, especially coupled with removing guaranteed DA from PoH. Mastery will only be useful for PW:S and the small amount it gets from crit in SS calculations (unless they keep a guaranteed ((1+M)*0.5) factor for SS PoH+DA).


I completely agree.

What the change does, as you said, is severely devalue Disc mastery. The new problem is that the mastery doesn't affect enough things. PW:S and (randomly crit generated) Divine Aegides. That's it. That's not a very compelling mastery.

What if disc's mastery were reworked as such:

"Increases the damage absorption of your Power Word: Shield by X%, and gives non-critical heals a Y% chance to cause Divine Aegis equal to 50% of the amount healed."

OR

"Increases the damage absorption of your Power Word: Shield by X%, and Z% of your overhealing is converted to a Divine Aegis on the target." (in this case, Z would be 70% base and about 90% with average mastery, or some number over 100%, whatever is balanced)

The second idea there would eliminate the need for Spirit Shell as it stands (because it would be effectively the current spirit shell). That would leave room for Spirit Shell like this:

Spirit Shell (2.5 second cast, approximately equal to PoH mana cost, spammable) -
Places an absorption shield equal to 1/3 the amount of your Power Word: Shield on a party or raid member. The nearest 4 party or raid members are shielded for the same amount. Prefers party or raid members at the lowest health.
Edited by Dekkar on 1/29/2013 11:03 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
11430
01/29/2013 11:03 PMPosted by Dekkar
"Increases the damage absorption of your Power Word: Shield by X%, and Z% of your overhealing is converted to a Divine Aegis on the target." (in this case, Z would be 70% base and about 90% with average mastery, or some number over 100%, whatever is balanced)


Please not this. I don't want to feel like the only button I should ever push is PoH.

Edit:
Spirit Shell (2.5 second cast, approximately equal to PoH mana cost, spammable) - Places an absorption shield equal to 1/3 the amount of your Power Word: Shield on a party or raid member. The nearest 4 party or raid members are shielded for the same amount. Prefers party or raid members at the lowest health.


No, because then we can't pre-emptively use it to put an absorb on everyone. It would make more sense to make PoH the smartheal and confine your new spiritshell to party-limit.

But it would also be overpowered.
Edited by Icecreamsoup on 1/30/2013 12:56 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Druid
6355
It's that our healing addresses the incoming damage before your healing can do so. As a result, if the incoming damage is weak, you will have nothing to heal.


And if the incoming damage is strong, any heal team without shields is boned, because their players are going to get oneshotted before they can react. Shields + regular heals can work together OK, as long as people don't pay too much attention to meters, but regular heals + regular heals are at a steep disadvantage because they can't get their players above 100% HP when they know damage is incoming.

Shields allow you to effectively give players more stam than they actually have. LOTS more stam. On top of the regular stam buff priests already bring (and druids have to hope someone else brings). Shamans have a weaksauce version of being able to heal people above 100% and druids have to start their teammates' health at 100% and count down from there.

It's a mechanic that is almost impossible to balance when spike damage is so large relative to player HP pools. Going from 100% HP+50% shield to 75% is much, much, much less dangerous than going from 100% to 25%.

Shieldless healers have little or nothing in the way of unique mechanics or advantages to compensate for the sheer power of being able to stack above 100% HP.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
ONE
12520
I feel like everything would be fine if they could somehow make absorbs more beneficial to be used after initial damage has gone out, yet before the more serious damage goes out, such that the absorbs are basically there to ensure that HoTs and direct heals have time to heal people back up, yet not sniping them off entirely.

I fear the only way to really do this is with obscene raid damage constantly, though, or mechanics such as pulse raid damage combined with damage that bypasses absorbs as a burst of damage.

i.e. Huge Burst Attack goes out, pierces absorbs. AoE damage pulses for a few seconds, allowing absorbs to be useful.
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90 Human Priest
15890
I am concerned that mastery is going from the best secondary stat for discipline to a place where it is only good for pw:s with a chance of being useful on other spells. Critical strike is traditionally not valued by healers (with the exception of classes that are strongly based in healing over time spells) because it can't be counted on for throughput. Healing of time effects have a larger number of healing events ("ticks") evening out the critical strikes to the point that they are more useful.

Atonement - I heal 10 man raids (current progression is H Garalon and H Will). I use atonement for damage modified fights or low damage times. Or in the case of H Garalon it serves to extend my healing range when the back end of the boss (melee dps) gets too far away or a kiter gets too far, etc.

Spirit shell fits too well with the mechanics of the fights in this tier. There are way too many "bring a discipline priest and win" fights. I have traditional raided on my priest. I started this expansion on a monk (Malamu) for tier token and intellect leather vs. cloth gearing considerations. We got to H Blade Lord and decided that I should switch back. The priest (at that point in LFR/valor gear) was a huge improvement over the monk (in half heroic raiding gear). Control of healing is just that much more valuable. Pre-emptive shields are just the ultimate in healing control. Uncontrolled wandering hots are the ultimate in "lack of control".

If fight mechanics didn't always include "constant aoe" or "one minute huge spikes", spirit shell wouldn't be as valuable. The shaman I heal with doesn't like the range on her spirit link totem. Right now, encounter mechanics make the totem almost useless. PW:Barrier has the same limited range; no one is currently complaining about the "OPness of PW:Barrier". Encounter mechanics dictate its usefulness. It isn't anywhere near the league of Spirit Shell or Healing Tide.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/30/2013 06:37 PMPosted by Calonderiel
Shieldless healers have little or nothing in the way of unique mechanics or advantages to compensate for the sheer power of being able to stack above 100% HP.


The compensation is supposed to be that while we can prevent damage, we aren't that good at healing it back up. And we're really not. Ideally, at least in a 10 man scenario, your Disc Priest prevents a chunk of the incoming damage, and your Druid/non Bubble Healer heals it back up. There is a fantastic synergy between a Druid healer and a Disc Priest. I know, because I heal with a Druid healer, though I rarely get to 2 heal with him (because he is also a very, very good Boomkin).

The thing is, we're also supposed to be limited by mana to prevent us from doing nothing but hitting one button all day, every day. Except we're not - and that's on Blizzard's head. You're limited by mana as a Druid, but I am not limited by mana as a Disc Priest because of how grossly overpowered Rapture is at the moment. Thus, if I wanted to, I could afford to do nothing but spam PoH all the time, and there would almost never be anything for you to heal because I'm constantly maintaining ridiculous DA shields on everyone.

In other words, DA on PoH was supposed to be the icing on the cake, just a little lagnappe on top of everything else. What it's turned into is this crazed abomination of what it was intended to be.
Edited by Tiriél on 1/31/2013 10:38 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
01/29/2013 02:46 PMPosted by Tiriél
You can also end up with a RoB (at least in 10 man) with a healer in an Amber Trap that no one can release because you're all debuffed (depending on how you handle the trappers, and when they release).


This happened to us last night. So annoying.
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