Are Holy Priests under powered?

90 Human Priest
0
Posted by Nemockulous
Come on I didn't remotely say this. But if you are going to ignore a more powerful spec just because it's mainstream you are intentionally gimping your raid. I'd love to be holy, but I know it puts my raid at a disadvantage.

Wait? What? Didn't you say this:

01/29/2013 01:38 AMPosted by Nemockulous
tl:dr - Yes, holy is weak. Disc is VERY strong. Consider switching.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth but was just commenting on what you said.


I can see where you could get that conclusion. I wasn't as clear as I was in my head with that statement. Holy is completely viable, but compared to disc it is just subpar. If you have the ability to play both effectively, and enjoy both, go to disc until it is normalized.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
3315
Come to think of it I have never looked at the over healing done. Maybe they are just burning through CDs and mana just to get on top.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
01/29/2013 02:44 AMPosted by Herbicide
Come to think of it I have never looked at the over healing done. Maybe they are just burning through CDs and mana just to get on top.


Or doing silly things like I do on LFR windlord. SS the raid then run through 2 windbombs >.>
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90 Human Priest
0
01/29/2013 02:45 AMPosted by Keirisonis
Come to think of it I have never looked at the over healing done. Maybe they are just burning through CDs and mana just to get on top.


Or doing silly things like I do on LFR windlord. SS the raid then run through 2 windbombs >.>


Padding meters like a boss.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
3315
So if I roll disc should I do:
Spirit > Crit > Mastery > Haste
or
Spirit > Mastery > Crit > Haste

These are just the two builds I have seen so if i'm doing wrong tell me.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Depends on what you're doing. Right now, Mastery is our strongest stat in most situations. If you're going for a pure Atonement build, then you'll lean more for Crit and Haste.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
01/29/2013 02:55 AMPosted by Tiriél
Depends on what you're doing. Right now, Mastery is our strongest stat in most situations. If you're going for a pure Atonement build, then you'll lean more for Crit and Haste.


I've seen both do well. Surprisingly, as I move away from mastery towards crit>mastery=haste I'm not noticing an overall difference in my healing done. Our shaman is a little higher and my dps is better but... Not much.

Stupid drops... All haste crap. The game wants me to MS shadow.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
3315
I just get the feeling I don't know what to do with myself as disc in a raid. I get the feeling i'm more absorby and let the actual healing be done by others which is bad. If i'm not healing what am I doing, and if i'm doing atonement i'm not doing much damage or healing so why am I even here if i'm not contributing, I try not to leach off of others.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
3315
Looking at my recount now which is from a LFR raid at Terrace I see
1. Shammy
2. Pally
3. Shammy
4. Holy Priest (me)
5. Pally
6. Disc Priest

This worries me a little. Again not trying to be a recount !@#$% but I don't like being at the bottom and I don't like being the bottom half of our 6 healer raid.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Just atonement spam. Seriously, there's almost nothing else to do.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10565
No.

Holy is still suffering a little bit from the changes in the beta - it's always been designed around having higher passive regen than other specs because it doesn't have any efficiency gimmicks like Holy Power/Beacon/Resurgence/Water Shield/Rapture/Chi/Omen of Clarity.

But the problem has mostly been mitigated by the spell cost reductions and assorted healing buffs over the last year or so. Glyph of Lightspring helped some too, providing some of the passive healing we were missing (sadly at the cost of creative Lightwell use, but at least it's a glyph so you can switch it out when creative use is beneficial).

Right now, Holy really shines at three things:

1) 10m: Raidhealing in fights with relatively constant raid damage high enough to break through the shields of any disc priest who might be present. Renew-rolling in Serenity with Cascade is really really amazing and underrated (I think someone mentioned above that all the competitive priests are Disc right now, or else you'd see a lot more of this on e.g. Garalon - it's seriously powerful, just unfortunately has a long setup time that makes it a bad fit for many damage patterns.) Aura fights that can really take advantage of PoM are a plus. Bonus points for mobile spread encounters.

2) Either raid size, but especially 10s: A mixed damage and healing role. Any priest spec can actually be useful for this, depending on the specifics of what you're looking for, but Holy is arguably the strongest because it can sustain about 80% of the damage of a dedicated DPS when you need it, and then turn around and burst out full-powered healing at well over 100% of what a dedicated healer with mana budgeting constraints could do in the same situation (Divine Hymn and/or full mana-dumping PoH burst and/or Serendipity-powered single-target/spot healing), and then switch back to DPS and gain all the mana back. Lightspring and Cascade also provide substantial passive and burst healing in the DPS periods.

This strength is why I run Holy rather than Disc as my second spec; my raid needs higher DPS and occasional burst healing from its 2.5th healer. You could also use Holy for sustained healing with occasional burst DPS (e.g. Elegon). You'd choose a Disc priest for a DPS/healing mix that's weighted more toward moderate sustained DPS and healing, and a Shadow priest (my usual spec these days) for a mix that's slanted heavily toward damage with some constant low-level healing.

3) 10m especially: Burst and regen. This is overshadowed by Disc right now because Disc can Spirit Shell on about the same interval as Holy can burst and can sustain better through the period where Holy would have to regen. That doesn't mean Holy isn't strong, only that Disc is stronger (which the devs are already aware of).

None of these strengths show up on the LFRmeters. #2 won't show up on any healing meter ever. #1 and #3 require higher damage than LFR bosses can do, and #3 in particular only matters if a fight has damage bursts high enough to be seriously dangerous and difficult for less-bursty healers to handle and if you don't have a disc priest.

They also all mostly stand out in 10s, where adding 80% of a DPS is a ~15% buff to your entire raid's damage, or where PoH can cover the entire raid in under 5 seconds, or where you can roll Renew on 80-90% of the raid. I'm actually not entirely sure what a holy priest is good for in 25s at the moment (since they fixed Sanctuary diminishing returns and murdered the CoH glyph). Priests don't scale with raid size the way shamans/paladins/monks do. But the spec isn't broken even there, it's middle-of-the-pack on most fights, and as far as I know it scales just fine with gear into the next patch.

If Holy ever really is underpowered, I'll be the first one yelling about it. Ask anyone here.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10565
Looking at my recount now which is from a LFR raid at Terrace I see
1. Shammy
2. Pally
3. Shammy
4. Holy Priest (me)
5. Pally
6. Disc Priest

This worries me a little. Again not trying to be a recount !@#$% but I don't like being at the bottom and I don't like being the bottom half of our 6 healer raid.

You can tell just from the simple fact that there's a disc priest at the bottom of that list (they should always, always, always be on top of low-damage fights like the ones in LFR) that this run had a very wide range of skill and gear levels. That's typical for LFR. You've got everyone in there from hardcore raiders to the bottom of the lazy barrel.

It's very likely that you just got outskilled and/or outgeared. Looking at your gear, it's really not anything to write home about - I wouldn't necessarily expect to top LFRmeters in that gear at this point in the expansion.

If you keep coming in in the middle of the healing pack, that probably just means you're about average as LFR healers go. Maybe a little above average, since you're putting out average performance in half blues. It doesn't mean anything about your class. Your class isn't holding you back; your class can 2-heal LFR. Possibly even almost solo heal it.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
3315
Looking at my recount now which is from a LFR raid at Terrace I see
1. Shammy
2. Pally
3. Shammy
4. Holy Priest (me)
5. Pally
6. Disc Priest

This worries me a little. Again not trying to be a recount !@#$% but I don't like being at the bottom and I don't like being the bottom half of our 6 healer raid.

You can tell just from the simple fact that there's a disc priest at the bottom of that list (they should always, always, always be on top of low-damage fights like the ones in LFR) that this run had a very wide range of skill and gear levels. That's typical for LFR. You've got everyone in there from hardcore raiders to the bottom of the lazy barrel.

It's very likely that you just got outskilled and/or outgeared. Looking at your gear, it's really not anything to write home about - I wouldn't necessarily expect to top LFRmeters in that gear at this point in the expansion.

If you keep coming in in the middle of the healing pack, that probably just means you're about average as LFR healers go. Maybe a little above average, since you're putting out average performance in half blues. It doesn't mean anything about your class. Your class isn't holding you back; your class can 2-heal LFR. Possibly even almost solo heal it.


I get what you are saying and yes that was just one instance but the entire idea of this thread was I was noticing a trend of being out class by those two classes over multiple LFR runs.
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90 Draenei Shaman
9630
01/29/2013 01:15 AMPosted by Herbicide
So I have experience raiding in LFR and I usually end up 3rd place in total healing. There is usually a Restoration Shaman in 1st and a Holy Paladin in 2nd. For the Shaman Healing Rain is avg 25-30% of their total healing and Illuminated Healing for Paladins is usually around 25% of their total healing. The Shaman at the end of the instance is has done about 1/3 more healing than me and the Paladin about a 1/4 more than me. I wondered whether they were just better geared than me but they usually are about the same level of gear that I am. So I hop on WoWhead and look up these skills, Healing Rain is a Resto Shamans equivalent to our Holy Word: Sanctuary but does not receive diminishing returns for the amount of players standing inside its effect, and Illuminated Healing is a mastery effect like a Disc Priest's Divine Aegis but always take effect instead of just criticals though its only at 15% instead of the 30% from Divine Aegis. I also have taken notice that they typically are not having as severe mana issues as me and other priests are having. I try to use Mindbender on cooldown and Hymn of Hope when it is need and I still see priests struggling to keep up with mana. I also took a look at the Restoration Shamans mastery effect, Deep Healing. Which gives them a constant 1%-24% increase to all healing effects depending on the targets current health.


I'm sorry to say this, but holy priests, while they may have the most healing spells out of any healing class, they are the easiest to play when working in tandem with the other healers. The reason you are seeing your self as lower on the healing charts is because the other healers are not playing as if they are playing with other healers. They are playing as if they are solo healing the raid.

I have always been top on the charts for healing in raid finder as well as raids because I don't try to cast direct heals. I use all of my spells as dots. I only cast my direct heals as needed and I never oom.

The holy priest is playable this way as well and I do play this way on my holy priest. As I am holy I never try to bubble, one of the worst things u can do as holy. I keep my renew on the tanks only and only cast my direct heals on players below 50% health. I first use flash heal for the bonus to greater heal. I use greater heals as needed. I keep prayer of mending up and sanctuary down. I never cast a direct heal on a player more then once. The other healers will make up the difference as long as they do what they are supposed to do. Play this way and you will never oom. Your mastery bonus will make up the difference in healing done. Your aoe heals such as prayer of healing should only be done once per group when needed and your circle of healing should be used when ever the cd is up.

There is another way to play the holy priest and it is easier then the one I posted above. This way of playing the holy priest is not a highly accepted way of playing them and the majority of players would consider this a waste of how to play them. I will post about it in a new posting right after this one.
Edited by Riaka on 1/29/2013 5:46 AM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
9630
A holy priest can be played as an over healer. This makes it easier on the other heals, but this way will make u oom before the fight is over and should only be used on certain fights in raids. The fights I am referring to are fights that have a lot of raid damage.

You place your sanctuary when ever it is up. You have your light well down when ever it is available to be placed. You use circle of healing when ever the cd is up. U then cast flash heal on the tank that is currently being targeted by the boss when ever the player needs it. You then keep casting your prayer of healing when ever the hots from your mastery are up on that group.

Now, I warn you, this is a disadvantaged way of playing the holy priest in very, however, it guarantees that the other healers have mana through out the entire fight and should only be used when the other healers understand what you are going to do. If they do not know, you will be blamed for all of their over healing and they will still oom as well as your healing done will be the lowest on the charts.
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01/29/2013 01:38 AMPosted by Nemockulous
tl:dr - Yes, holy is weak. Disc is VERY strong. Consider switching.


Why should I have to switch my favorite spec just to be viable? It's blizzards job to balance class mechanics. I shouldn't have to switch specs just to be brought to a raid. The only thing that should have any affect on one's healing output is the skill of the player, and the knowledge they have with their spec and class; not being overpowered/gimp.

For example, I was running MOV last night, and I was healing with a very geared rshaman. At the end of the raid, he was at about 50k heals overall. I was at 41k, and I'm very undergeared in comparison. He out healed me, but only by about 9k. We both beat our hpally that was equally geared, if not slightly higher than me.

I really hope this game doesn't completely go FOTM (like pvp did starting in wrath).
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90 Human Paladin
13665
01/29/2013 03:54 AMPosted by Kaels
Right now, Holy really shines at three things:


You forgot one major thing.

25-man sustained damage. Holy priests are ABSURD on Garalon 25. ABSURD. Basically, any fight where people are consistently below 100%. Echo of Light on my priest was my #2 heal on Garalon 25. Cascade and PoM were #1 and #3. PoM with Divine Insight is ridiculously awesome when it's not overhealing.

Mind you, my other spec is disc so my gear is fairly mastery heavy. 3300-ish haste rating, a fair bit of crit, and a lot of mastery. IIRC Echo of Light can crit.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
Holy is fine. Just under represented.

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25H/all/14/60/default/#0000000000000000000000000000111111
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90 Human Priest
0
01/29/2013 09:15 AMPosted by Exmortem
tl:dr - Yes, holy is weak. Disc is VERY strong. Consider switching.


Why should I have to switch my favorite spec just to be viable? It's blizzards job to balance class mechanics. I shouldn't have to switch specs just to be brought to a raid. The only thing that should have any affect on one's healing output is the skill of the player, and the knowledge they have with their spec and class; not being overpowered/gimp.

For example, I was running MOV last night, and I was healing with a very geared rshaman. At the end of the raid, he was at about 50k heals overall. I was at 41k, and I'm very undergeared in comparison. He out healed me, but only by about 9k. We both beat our hpally that was equally geared, if not slightly higher than me.

I really hope this game doesn't completely go FOTM (like pvp did starting in wrath).


I never said you should. I said CONSIDER switching. I consider Holy to be weak simply because it is a lot easier to play incorrectly. The mana is a lot tighter with Holy over Disc, and as such, if you aren't careful, you end up in a bad situation. Disc on the other hand has mana hand over fist, and can take some bad decisions. Both are viable, just Disc is really strong with the style of fights that are present.
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