Need for Heroic LFR. Current LFR too easy.

90 Orc Warlock
13430
It would be a step backwards in design progress. We had Cata launch Heroics that required a certain level of skill. You generally had to use CC and pay attention to certain boss mechanics. I maintain that these were some of the most fun instances I've played in WoW but that aside, they've moved away from that.

The lesson Blizzard is teaching the majority of the playerbase is, if you can queue for it, it will be easy and quick and relatively efficient. You are not expected to be skilled. You should not expect to wipe much. To go back on this would incur such wrath and backlash as has not been seen in some time.

Just look at pre-nerf Garalon, as has been said many times already. When I downed it, I felt a small bit of accomplishment, as with downing a Normal or Heroic mode boss. It had required teamwork and relatively good performance from the group. Most everyone else seems to have thought it was completely unacceptable to have wiped more than 3 times on a boss, especially if they did not receive an epic for their time.

If you can queue for it, it can't be challenging. The purpose of random group content is to clear it, not to work through it like progression. The "just don't queue for it" argument won't work, simply because it doesn't. Players will queue for it and expect to be able to do it.
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90 Orc Warlock
13430
Side note, Clyssia, I'd recommend transferring to a high population server, somewhere where you'll have better chances of finding a different group if your first choice doesn't work out. Talk thoroughly with the raid leader(s) as you're applying, do your best and hope for acceptance. Be honest and if they don't sound promising, don't transfer. Don't even bother leveling a toon for them.

Another important point, it's best when you are applying to a guild that has progression relatively consistent with yours. If that means applying to a raid group just starting out, then that's how it'll have to be. It would just be a bit much, for example, to ask a guild working on Heroic mode to recruit someone who hasn't cleared Normals. Just doesn't happen that way usually.

And though I hate to point it out to you, Blizzard has said LFR is aimed at players who either don't want to participate in organized raiding, or don't have the time/schedule for it. I do honestly wish you luck and am sure if you're persistent, you'll find a guild that works for you and will accept you. Just show them you know your class and role well and are a team player.
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100 Worgen Druid
15105
There's a huge gulf in difficulty between LFR and 25N - plenty of room for a 'harder' LFR.

Some people are talking about LFR as if it's an "easy version" of other raids. That's not what it's about: it's a "convenient version". We have two types of raider:

(A) Can raid at regular times.
(B) Can't raid at regular times.

Saying that people in (B) "should do normal modes" is failing to understand the OP's situation.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
02/08/2013 11:40 PMPosted by Autumni
Some people are talking about LFR as if it's an "easy version" of other raids. That's not what it's about: it's a "convenient version". We have two types of raider:


Convenient would just lump 10 or 25 people together into a normal raid, since it would just conveniently remove that whole socialization part.

Easy is, when you play garalon tag and still kill the boss on your first pull.

02/08/2013 11:40 PMPosted by Autumni
Saying that people in (B) "should do normal modes" is failing to understand the OP's situation.


6 am pugs are awesome, killed heroic stoneguards in a 6 am pug.
Edited by Postonforums on 2/8/2013 11:45 PM PST
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90 Troll Warrior
10895
01/29/2013 05:27 AMPosted by Zionic
Isn't this just normal modes?


It's normal modes but with random people and no need to sit in a city looking for a pug. At least I think that was the OPs idea.

I'd partake in it for sure but I also disagree there needs to be more modes. There is a lot out there currently.

I believe the real need here is for better ways to construct a group when looking to do non-RF (and non-guild) content.
Edited by Hyto on 2/9/2013 1:22 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
This thread is simply another incarnation of our failed server populations and access to find people for normal mode raiding.
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90 Orc Warlock
13430
There's a huge gulf in difficulty between LFR and 25N - plenty of room for a 'harder' LFR.

Some people are talking about LFR as if it's an "easy version" of other raids. That's not what it's about: it's a "convenient version". We have two types of raider:

(A) Can raid at regular times.
(B) Can't raid at regular times.

Saying that people in (B) "should do normal modes" is failing to understand the OP's situation.


I have to disagree here, I'd say LFR is both a convenient version and an easy version. One could argue it is convenient in part because of how easy it is, that and the fact that you can queue for it.

You have far more than two types of raiders, that's just oversimplifying things far too much. There are plenty of raiders who have the time to do Normal raids, and are not skilled enough to do them, and do not want to put that effort in. They enjoy LFR because it doesn't ask that of them.

All that being said, I really don't think we need yet another difficulty level. We've already got LFR, and 10/25 Normal and Heroic. We're going to have TF level non-tier gear. Tuning and balancing, especially with regards to gear levels, is already becoming a nightmare. A new LFR mode that would be miserable for those that attempted it and would shortly be utilized by very few just doesn't seem worth the time.

This idea has been brought up before, and I think a blue responded once, basically saying LFR is not for the challenge. Just not the design intent.
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90 Orc Shaman
13550
There's a huge gulf in difficulty between LFR and 25N - plenty of room for a 'harder' LFR.

Some people are talking about LFR as if it's an "easy version" of other raids. That's not what it's about: it's a "convenient version". We have two types of raider:

(A) Can raid at regular times.
(B) Can't raid at regular times.

Saying that people in (B) "should do normal modes" is failing to understand the OP's situation.


The game can't satisfy EVERYONE. How many permutations do you need? Five formats is already pushing it.

What's next after this - a medium LFR mode? Y'know, because the original LFR is too easy and the hard LFR is too hard?
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100 Human Paladin
14285
02/08/2013 07:37 PMPosted by Clyssia


This entire forum would like to disagree with you. There is a huge cross section of guilds out there doing all levels of content at all levels of progression at every conceivable raid time, looking for every class and spec (except warlocks, theres about 10,000 warlocks out there right now).


Please, quote my entire sentence, not just the portion you want to pick apart.

*ACTUAL QUOTE* Most guilds have their main team set, and aren't interested in having a second group, or say they're getting one together, so you realm/faction transfer your main only to be told 3 weeks later "yeah, we decided not to do that, sorry". I've leveled toons on 3 different servers (and always toons that a guild says they need). *END QUOTE*

I know that there is a forum for guilds looking for members, however I do not have the money to be server changing frequently (and I've already done a server and/or faction change to get with a group that "needs" me, only to find out they got someone else, decided they don't want my class, etc). I can't get experience in regular raids because I can't get into a PUG/raiding guild because I don't have experience in regular raids. See where the problem happens?


The easiest way to get into a raid guild is to do the following:

1. Be on a relatively high-population server. If you're going to transfer anywhere, do this.

2. Apply to a lower-end raiding guild or a guild who has lost a player to real life or whatever. Guilds try to fill holes in their raid team all the time.
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90 Tauren Paladin
14275
Too many trolls in lfr as is... a heroic lfr would just attract more trolls.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
11320
02/09/2013 07:24 AMPosted by Firestyle
This thread is simply another incarnation of our failed server populations and access to find people for normal mode raiding.


Finding a guild is arguably the single hardest part of raiding. It's why many of us settle for LFR. It's not the difficulty that makes it attractive, it's the ease and simplicity of being able to form up players for a raid.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
the difficulty of LFR, is relative to the group you get. we know it's easy from a raiders perspective, but the 25 people you get can vary a great deal.

is your group filled with heroic raiders? it will be easy.

is your group filled with people that have no gems, enchants, or raid experience? it will be hard.

if you want a more consistent challenge, thats what normal/heroic are for.


Well yes, when you do that argument, lfr is harder than heroic raiding sometimes, as I've wiped on stoneguards LFR, while it's a guarantee'd one shot in real raid.

But it's not harder, you just get lumped with 4 afk healers and anything is "hard"

Of course, everything is relative, but taking 25 people, tossing them into a 10 man raid with every bad spell nerfed to where it can't kill you, is easymode, by every definition imaginable.
Edited by Postonforums on 2/9/2013 3:31 PM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
7150
I have no problems being with a group that's learning the raids. As long as they have an idea of how it works (and preferably have run LFR a number of times so they're familiar with the mechanics even if they don't really matter much in there; I try to pay attention to the mechanics and pretend like they actually matter so I've trained myself to react to them if I can ever get in a normal run), it's not a problem. Dates/times aren't an issue for me, either, since I'm a full time live-in caregiver for my granddad, I don't have a job or any responsibilities that keep me from playing in the evening/late at night (I'm a full time student, but that's all online, so there aren't class times for that, either). My problem is solely that I have no experience in the "real" raids. And that's what I keep getting told. "Get some experience and come back and talk to us." No, I don't expect a hardcore guild that's almost done with heroic progression to drop back and carry me thru normals to get gear. But when you see guilds recruiting that are 1/6 normal, and only want experienced players, it's a little frustrating. Heck, I'd be happy to run and not even roll on gear, just take stuff if none of the "regular" people need it.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
I have no problems being with a group that's learning the raids. As long as they have an idea of how it works (and preferably have run LFR a number of times so they're familiar with the mechanics even if they don't really matter much in there; I try to pay attention to the mechanics and pretend like they actually matter so I've trained myself to react to them if I can ever get in a normal run), it's not a problem. Dates/times aren't an issue for me, either, since I'm a full time live-in caregiver for my granddad, I don't have a job or any responsibilities that keep me from playing in the evening/late at night (I'm a full time student, but that's all online, so there aren't class times for that, either). My problem is solely that I have no experience in the "real" raids. And that's what I keep getting told. "Get some experience and come back and talk to us." No, I don't expect a hardcore guild that's almost done with heroic progression to drop back and carry me thru normals to get gear. But when you see guilds recruiting that are 1/6 normal, and only want experienced players, it's a little frustrating. Heck, I'd be happy to run and not even roll on gear, just take stuff if none of the "regular" people need it.


The reason those guilds are still stuck at 1/6 normal is very obvious.

Casual guilds that are ~halfway through this tier are usually very open armed on recruits, it may just be your server or who you're speaking to.

The big problem with LFR has been that's it has breeded a bunch of entitled knowitalls lately, that are worse than people with 0 experience because of their attitude that they can kill it on lfr. (this is not directed at you at all).
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90 Night Elf Warrior
11440
01/29/2013 06:53 AMPosted by Deathray
Why don't you find a raiding guild that suits your play time? Or transfer to a server that pugs normal content a lot if you don't want to be in a guild.

Problem with that is nowadays it's not just whether they play at the same time you do, and whether you are at their skill level. 1/3 of finding a raid guild for normal+ is finding a group of people who you can click with. SOOOOOO many people have issues or attitude problems or are selfish as hell, and it really is an issue that it's so hard to find a group of people to get along with. Now to those people who are saying that isn't an issue, we're fine, it's just you; you are literally the problem, or are lucky enough to have not ran into 90% of the population of WoW. Don't waste your time posting to me. To the rest, I really wouldn't mind there being LFR with a Normal difficulty. It would be solely everyone's choice to do it, and it would be tied to your normal raid id for loot, same as lfr level, so you could keep doing it for rep, but each boss per week would only give you a chance at loot once, and for boss saves, it would work as normal. So either you do LFR Heroic or Normal, or you can do both mixed depending on the groups you join.
Edited by Jadiana on 2/9/2013 7:35 PM PST
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100 Pandaren Warrior
16305
02/08/2013 11:40 PMPosted by Autumni
Saying that people in (B) "should do normal modes" is failing to understand the OP's situation.


Then they should (C) go to a better server.
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90 Pandaren Monk
10970
01/29/2013 06:50 AMPosted by Zikx
I still vote for April Fool's day they swap LFR and heroic difficulty around. Now THAT would be fun to watch.


This would be amazing. The tears would be so delicious.
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90 Worgen Druid
7905
01/29/2013 06:50 AMPosted by Zikx
I still vote for April Fool's day they swap LFR and heroic difficulty around. Now THAT would be fun to watch.
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90 Orc Death Knight
tys
9350


The reason those guilds are still stuck at 1/6 normal is very obvious.

Casual guilds that are ~halfway through this tier are usually very open armed on recruits, it may just be your server or who you're speaking to.

The big problem with LFR has been that's it has breeded a bunch of entitled knowitalls lately, that are worse than people with 0 experience because of their attitude that they can kill it on lfr. (this is not directed at you at all).


It's a chicken and egg problem. For a guild to attract veteran raiders, well, veteran raiders have their own expectations on what skill level and progression they want when they apply to a guild.

Being open armed is the only way to really attract recruits and without logs, or any sort of prior experience, it's difficult to say how a new recruit will perform when put into a raiding environment.

I do agree that one undesirable impact of LFR is that it has created a group of people who ignore mechanics, who feel that they can kill it on heroic simply because they have killed it on LFR, and who have limited progression experience. More importantly, when wipes inevitably do occur, there is much recrimination (particularly on recount), but very little real analysis on what went wrong and how to prevent it next pull.

I think that this is a consequence of the declining population of many of WoW's servers. There simply isn't a population able to support a good pugging environment and one that would allow for the kind of "on demand" raiding that the OP wishes for.
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