The state of Disc (Re: GC's PvE concerns)

90 Troll Priest
12105
Blizzard is WELL known for overreacting to OP-ness and nerfing things to the point of unplayability because they don't understand the basic dynamics on which the spec is operating.


Umm when did this ever happen, in the history of WoW?



He may be exaggerating to an extent, since no class has ever been unplayable. But, there are many examples of Blizz going overboard with balancing specs/abilities they consider "OP", turning a 10 into a -3 in one hotfix, instead of a more reasonable 5 or 6, and it taking every weeks, or even months, for them to address their "fix".

Edit: Not to say I agree with the OP, I don't. But, lets not try to make Blizz out like they doesn't overdo the balance hotfixing now and then.
Edited by Vear on 1/29/2013 7:42 PM PST
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90 Human Priest
18035
01/29/2013 07:38 PMPosted by Vear


Umm when did this ever happen, in the history of WoW?



He may be exaggerating to an extent, since no class has ever been unplayable. But, there are many examples of Blizz going overboard with balancing specs/abilities they consider "OP", turning a 10 into a -3 in one hotfix, instead of a more reasonable 5 or 6, and it taking every weeks, or even months, for them to address their "fix".

Edit: Not to say I agree with the OP, I don't. But, lets not try to make Blizz out like they doesn't overdo the balance hotfixing now and then.


That was quite what I meant--and yes I suppose you could say I was exaggerating. (On the other hand a lot of people are arguing that holy priests are bad enough right now to be unplayable compared to disc, arent they?)

As to the rest of you... I prefer disc to holy as is. I would, however, prefer being able to choose whether or not I use atonement, especially because that is the design direction that was last communicated to the community.

In my opinion the designers just don't understand how the spec works in the first place. I don't have a very high opinion of blizzard's design team. I've said it before--I'm a game designer myself and I've seen some truly criminal stupidity come through to live that should have been OBVIOUSLY wrong to ANYONE who looked at it in ALPHA stages.

At this point I don't expect them to fix anything right. I'm just hoping they won't screw it up much worse than it is already.
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01/29/2013 07:49 PMPosted by Eldil
In my opinion the designers just don't understand how the spec works in the first place.


So, the designers who... you know.. designed the class, don't understand it, yet by some miracle... you do?

That's not arrogant AT ALL.
Edited by Morenn on 1/29/2013 8:02 PM PST
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90 Human Priest
18035
if you prefer to see it as such go ahead. I really don't care.

I've presented my concerns in an intelligible manner. I expect that they can make the decisions for themselves. Just because I don't respect their judgment very much doesn't mean that I don't recognize that they make the decisions.

Nor does my opinion of them validate or invalidate my concerns. (Nor does your opinion of me mean much to me. If you knew me personally maybe that would change something--or maybe not. Who knows?)
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90 Human Priest
18035
Actually you know on second thought I'm a little bit boggled by your interpretation of what I said as arrogance.

I started out having very little opinion of the design team--good or bad. I had no evidence either way. Then I saw them do things that I would fire anyone working under me for doing. This caused my estimation of them to decline. At the beginning of MoP I saw what they did to disc priests based on the overall changes to int and what that did to rapture... and what they failed to do.

*Edit: Just as an example: Before MoP I was regaining ~ 30k mana per rapture during DS10. ...Granted I was a little OP at the time but it was THAT RAPTURE VALUE that all the heal costs were based on. ...Guess what? That didn't change going into MoP. We're still working on the same basic percentage costs of mana that we were before the changes to intellect and rapture. THAT is amateurish as hell.*

It was incredibly amateurish and it showed that they had little or no base understanding of what was going on in the average disc healer's rotation.

So now you're saying that it's arrogant of me to base my judgments on my experience?

Are you SERIOUS???

I'm judging them on the same professional standards that I face every day and now I'M arrogant??? LOL
Edited by Eldil on 1/29/2013 8:29 PM PST
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90 Gnome Priest
11895
01/29/2013 08:16 PMPosted by Eldil
~ 30k mana per rapture during DS10.

I'm pretty sure that's not the case. I'm a Gnome and I saw maybe...12k Rapture procs. 30k would be pretty much impossible.

EDIT: That aside, I'm having trouble trying to figure out what you're getting at with that whole...thing. It's intended that our regen wouldn't be as good as it was in DS. That was the end tier of the last expansion.
Edited by Skootalloo on 1/29/2013 10:51 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
I was in near-full heroic gear by the end of DS, and I never got 30k Rapture procs that I can recall. You would have had to have...a 500k mana pool to get a 30k rapture proc during DS.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13405
At no point in DS were we gaining anything close to 30k Rapture returns. The highest mana pools I remember were brushing 220k (and that was in full/near-full BiS gnomes), which means, at 6%, Rapture was giving 13.2k.

While you're not wrong about Discipline suffering at the most basic of levels, Eldil, you're really not providing a compelling (or, honestly, particularly intelligible) argument. Your definition of gimmick seems to be arbitrary, you've shown your memory of Cata play to be faulty, and shown yourself to be both very prickly and prone to exaggeration.
Edited by Elethia on 1/30/2013 1:14 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12155
At no point in DS were we gaining anything close to 30k Rapture returns. The highest mana pools I remember were brushing 220k (and that was in full/near-full BiS gnomes), which means, at 6%, Rapture was giving 13.2k.

While you're not wrong about Discipline suffering at the most basic of levels, Eldil, you're really not providing a compelling (or, honestly, particularly intelligible) argument. Your definition of gimmick seems to be arbitrary, you've shown your memory of Cata play to be faulty, and shown yourself to be both very prickly and prone to exaggeration.

Oh, that's why we were just talking about that :)

Yeah, I think on the very outside edge of plausibility, when the stars aligned, a full BIS gnome with both Light weave and Power Torrent procced, Hymn of Hope rolling, an Int pot active, and possibly an Int proc trinket might have been able to hit something like 18k. But 30? No.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13405
Yep!

I was looking through my Cata screenshots, but all my DS ones were early on, when I had about 145k mana. I knew near the end I had more, and I remember gawping at BiS wearers, so I poked you to verify. :3
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90 Worgen Hunter
14315
Get rid of this spirit shell nonsense and put bubble back to 30 sec and fix the mana cost... honestly the design churn on this stuff has just failed to nerf the spec over and over. Why not restore the iconic spell of PW:S. We can dream.

The failed paradigm is that disc is considered a healer like any other healer, but it is really a utility role of pre-shielding the raid. Then when people got meters that started showing absorbs and putting it next to heals everybody started crying. This led to multiple nerfs to PW:S and a PoH-heavy playstyle more appropriate to Holy. But in a raid disc is not a healer and should not be designed like one nor compared to one.

Disc is the only support role in WoW.
Edited by Positivity on 1/30/2013 3:05 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
12925
01/29/2013 07:57 PMPosted by Morenn
So, the designers who... you know.. designed the class, don't understand it, yet by some miracle... you do?


Are you implying they do? Some of the stuff they do kind of makes you wonder sometimes.
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01/30/2013 03:31 AMPosted by Volios
Are you implying they do? Some of the stuff they do kind of makes you wonder sometimes.


Of course it makes us wonder, the same could said about a lot of things both inside, and outside, the game. That said, to imply that YOU know better how something that someone else designed works is pretty ludicrous.

Do I think they are certain about where they want the class to be and how best to get there? No.
Do I think I know better about where the class should be and how to get there? No, though I certainly have some opinions on that.

01/29/2013 08:16 PMPosted by Eldil
So now you're saying that it's arrogant of me to base my judgments on my experience?


Since your experiences never actually happened (at least in regards to rapture)... yeah I kinda am.
Edited by Morenn on 1/30/2013 4:43 AM PST
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90 Human Priest
17065
01/30/2013 02:06 AMPosted by Positivity
Disc is the only support role in WoW.


That's the problem Blizz has with it.

"We have Disc to be a staple role by itself and not a support role."

"We like the absorb mechanic but we only want disc to absorb 'enough', not 'too much'."

Because absorbs by its own nature trivializes content, unless they route everything like Shadowy Attacks off Garajal where it goes through absorbs, which by then just completely negates the usefulness of a disc, which makes it useless..

All Disc needed was a straight up numbers nerf and small tweaks - rapture fix, SS not doing so much, DA nerf (make it unrollable, absorb for LESS). But at the moment it seems Blizz took a sledgehammer to the mechanics (mastery unlinked from SS, POH DA no longer controllable/predictable).

There are times I doubt blizz understands what a healer values as a part of the healing toolkit.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
01/30/2013 06:28 AMPosted by Zamboozle
There are times I doubt blizz understands what a healer values as a part of the healing toolkit.


Personally i think these changes do. But i think they see what you value, Blizzards see something that is being relied on way too much and being way to potent. personally i think they could have shifted SS to a 120 sec cd, nerfed DA by 15% or so and discs would have been pretty much in line with everyone else. But when the iconic spell is being used as just a regen mechanic, they didn't like that model.
Edited by Sadiemay on 1/30/2013 7:23 AM PST
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100 Pandaren Priest
18860
01/30/2013 06:28 AMPosted by Zamboozle
All Disc needed was a straight up numbers nerf and small tweaks - rapture fix


I've been saying Rapture needs a flat mana return since they announced fixed mana pools.

Not that I don't enjoy my endless mana, but really, it is unfair.

01/30/2013 07:22 AMPosted by Sadiemay
But when the iconic spell is being used as just a regen mechanic, they didn't like that model.


I will definitely be happy to use PW:S more, and I think it's one of the trickier spells to deal with because there is such a thin line between it being spammed endlessly and used only for a rapture mechanic, and most of that is because of player mentality (you know, the this what you do all the time or none of the time deal).
Edited by Kerias on 1/30/2013 7:28 AM PST
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Personally i think these changes do. But i think they see what you value, Blizzards see something that is being relied on way too much and being way to potent. personally i think they could have shifted SS to a 120 sec cd, nerfed DA by 15% or so and discs would have been pretty much in line with everyone else. But when the iconic spell is being used as just a regen mechanic, they didn't like that model.


Bolded the part that I find most important. I think this is a very big part of it. It's not so much that they don't know what they are doing (though the thought does cross my mind at times), but rather their vision is not our vision.
Edited by Morenn on 1/30/2013 7:35 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
01/30/2013 07:26 AMPosted by Kerias
there is such a thin line between it being spammed endlessly and used only for a rapture mechanic, and most of that is because of player mentality (you know, the this what you do all the time or none of the time deal).


Agreed it is a fine line. And i don't think people realize how hard that is to balance and get all emotional about it. When ever they see a class relying to heavily on one part of their toolkit it is going to take a shot, it is the way it always has been.
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100 Pandaren Priest
18860
And as priests we should be championing our diverse toolkit. This has been a big part of our "marketing" you might say.

This is, of course, difficult having PoH being our go-to AoE heal.
Edited by Kerias on 1/30/2013 7:43 AM PST
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01/30/2013 07:42 AMPosted by Kerias
This is, of course, difficult having PoH being our go-to AoE heal.


Not even just 'go to'... ONLY outside level 90 talents, which with a cd, isn't really so much a "choice".
Edited by Morenn on 1/30/2013 7:46 AM PST
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