The state of Disc (Re: GC's PvE concerns)

90 Pandaren Shaman
9855
I think they should just give all Healing Specs a Spelled called absorb, and make it so we only press that for however long we are raiding. Would fix so much
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12025
01/30/2013 10:36 AMPosted by Shammyren
I think they should just give all Healing Specs a Spelled called absorb, and make it so we only press that for however long we are raiding. Would fix so much


Oh yes and the new fun way of healing will be "who can press their absorb button first?" or "who can stack their absorb stat highest?!"

It will be like the mini-game I play to see how well I can time bloodlust to go off RIGHT before my raid leader calls for it so everyone can make fun of him and say "way behind dude gosh!"
Edited by Fluffy on 1/30/2013 10:39 AM PST
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90 Human Priest
17065
What disc should be: I eat a healthy portion of the cake with plenty left for everyone else and nobody feels too full.

What disc is now: I eat the entire damn thing before it even hits the table, others fight over for scraps.

Unfortunately my spoon is large so me being greedy I'm going to take as much as I can. But now they seem to be taking my soup spoon away and giving me a teaspoon. Not only that, but this teaspoon seems to be full of holes, which means if I stab the cake I may get lucky and get cake or I get RNGed and end up with air.

._.

Does that even make sense?
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9855
What disc should be: I eat a healthy portion of the cake with plenty left for everyone else and nobody feels too full.

What disc is now: I eat the entire damn thing before it even hits the table, others fight over for scraps.

Unfortunately my spoon is large so me being greedy I'm going to take as much as I can. But now they seem to be taking my soup spoon away and giving me a teaspoon. Not only that, but this teaspoon seems to be full of holes, which means if I stab the cake I may get lucky and get cake or I get RNGed and end up with air.

._.

Does that even make sense?


Chocolate or vanilla cake? Cause that would make a difference. Also, what kid of icing, is it a multi-teired cake, or single teir? you missed important details
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Is this the case though Zamboozle? Have you tested things out on the PTR? Does the cost reduction of PW:S not do anything to fill in the holes you feel are in your spoon?

I am not implying it does, or it doesn't, I am just curious if your opinion is based on feeling or testing.
Edited by Morenn on 1/30/2013 11:02 AM PST
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90 Human Priest
17065
Is this the case though Zamboozle? Have you tested things out on the PTR? Does the cost reduction of PW:S not do anything to fill in the holes you feel are in your spoon?

I am not implying it does, or it doesn't, I am just curious if your opinion is based on feeling or testing.


No no..I prefer to the DA and POH change with the cake analogy. Not related to PWS or SS.

Also, it's cake. CAKE I SAY. I prefer New York style cheesecake with a cup of hot tea. Maybe a strawberry or two.

Unlinking mastery from SS is basically reducing the size of our 'spoon', which while I agree with the idea, I don't like the method...mostly because combined with DA unlinked to POH, mastery turns from a stat that 25 priests stack for POH/SS/DA blanketing to a stat we want to avoid alla gear is fuxxored.

Unless said 25 wants to go the route of PWS spam (viable, yes, lol). in that case, go go mastery and spam them bubbles. But in the grand scale of things that's a very narrow, 'specialized' niche which is not going to be different from POHDA rolling, tank ignoring 25priests, as a disc 'healer', that's not something I want to niche myself into, nor do I think Blizzard wants to shove discs into..or back into, for that matter. That is just trading one evil for another.

Without a doubt if PWS spam is viable again for live and every 25 disc decides to do it because it's viable and it's 'the best HPS', Blizz is going to kill it off, and that scares me. Player reaction has shown that there is NO middle ground for anything - whether it be rolling POHDA for absorbs or spamming PWS. Especially with the current gear scaling and mana regen is going up and up and up. Nobody is going to go "ok I've casted 10 PWS which is what blizz has in mind, I'm gonna stop now to keep it moderate."

The sheer design flaw of that just makes me shake my head.

TLDR: It messes everything up and it shows no sign of stopping.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
13635
Eldil -

Please provide a link to the games you have made. I really want to play them, since you advertise nothing *amateurish,* and you imply a seriously high level of polish and perfection.

I can't wait, man - I've been waiting for this game FOREVER. I can't believe it has taken this long for me to find it, because it's SO SIMPLE TO DO.

Hurry man, the suspense and excitement are killing me!

Riôt
Edited by Riôt on 1/30/2013 11:57 AM PST
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01/30/2013 11:34 AMPosted by Zamboozle
No no..I prefer to the DA and POH change with the cake analogy. Not related to PWS or SS.


Ok, fair enough. :) I don't disagree with you there and I am hoping we will see an increase in healing via PoH to subsidize what we lost on the backend with absorbs. not 50% or anything wild, but I think a 15-20% would be reasonable.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13955
01/30/2013 10:07 AMPosted by Alashe
The idea of absorbs is to prevent death--the whole preventing all the damage thing (and thereby negating mechanics and neutralizing other healers) is what got us here.


The idea of any healing is to prevent death. In fact, one could say that that is the ultimate goal of all healers: preventing death. Not keeping everyone at full, not keeping everyone stable (though those are admirable and certainly worthwhile sub-goals); keeping them alive.

Absorbs serve as front-line mitigation and as a raid stabilizer during damage (not in the same sense as smart heals, but in the sense that our "even" mitigation allows others to fill the gaps while we keep the raid buoyed).

In fact, for both Holy and Disc, I've considered PoH a great stabilizer overall and I am one who will be sad to see it leave its status as a party heal. As frustrating as working with that sort of mechanic can be, it is truly amazing when you make it work, and is one of many wonderful facets that separate priests from other healers.
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90 Pandaren Priest
12925
01/30/2013 04:32 AMPosted by Morenn
Of course it makes us wonder, the same could said about a lot of things both inside, and outside, the game. That said, to imply that YOU know better how something that someone else designed works is pretty ludicrous.


I'm not saying I know how to balance the spec better than the developers. I'm not saying the OP does either. It seems to me they are actually looking in the right areas for once. The confusing part is the developers seem to constantly make knee jerk reactions to class balance. And forgive me, but in reality, there are plenty of people that are qualified for job X but really have no idea how to do job X. So no, I don't think the developers know best just because they're the developers.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13150
01/30/2013 12:34 PMPosted by Elethia
The idea of absorbs is to prevent death--the whole preventing all the damage thing (and thereby negating mechanics and neutralizing other healers) is what got us here.


The idea of any healing is to prevent death. In fact, one could say that that is the ultimate goal of all healers: preventing death. Not keeping everyone at full, not keeping everyone stable (though those are admirable and certainly worthwhile sub-goals); keeping them alive.



That was actually my point. Our job is the same as every other healer's.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13955
Ahah! Well, wasn't sure so I figured it was worth a post. :)
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01/30/2013 01:16 PMPosted by Volios
So no, I don't think the developers know best just because they're the developers.


Perhaps I am misunderstanding the sentiment (quite possible), but to me this would be akin to saying a carpenter that built a house doesn't necessarily know where the bathroom is just because he built it. Which, I would think, he would.

edit: Perhaps I give carpenters, and developers, more credit than is warranted, as per Tiriel's comment. :P
Edited by Morenn on 1/30/2013 2:01 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/30/2013 01:52 PMPosted by Morenn
So no, I don't think the developers know best just because they're the developers.


Perhaps I am misunderstanding the sentiment (quite possible), but to me this would be akin to saying a carpenter that built a house doesn't necessarily know where the bathroom is just because he built it. Which, I would think, he would.


Holmes on Homes has some interesting stories...

It's happened. >.>
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100 Human Priest
14330
01/30/2013 01:52 PMPosted by Morenn
Perhaps I am misunderstanding the sentiment (quite possible), but to me this would be akin to saying a carpenter that built a house doesn't necessarily know where the bathroom is just because he built it. Which, I would think, he would.


Its more like that the carpenter decided to place the sink in one place when it would have made the bathroom seem bigger if it was in a different place. Both work but one could be considered better than the other.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
01/30/2013 01:52 PMPosted by Morenn
So no, I don't think the developers know best just because they're the developers.


Perhaps I am misunderstanding the sentiment (quite possible), but to me this would be akin to saying a carpenter that built a house doesn't necessarily know where the bathroom is just because he built it. Which, I would think, he would.

edit: Perhaps I give carpenters, and developers, more credit than is warranted, as per Tiriel's comment. :P


One need only look to the developers' apparent collective insanity regarding resto shaman at the beginning of cataclsym. "We feel they are in a good place." "We feel healing is really balanced."

"Never mind, here, let us buff almost every single one of your spells by 15%"
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100 Night Elf Priest
13955
01/30/2013 01:52 PMPosted by Morenn
So no, I don't think the developers know best just because they're the developers.


Perhaps I am misunderstanding the sentiment (quite possible), but to me this would be akin to saying a carpenter that built a house doesn't necessarily know where the bathroom is just because he built it. Which, I would think, he would.

edit: Perhaps I give carpenters, and developers, more credit than is warranted, as per Tiriel's comment. :P


Well, you can consider the fact that Inner Fire used to have attack power, etc.

Let's say that there are a dozen carpenters working on a dozen-dozen rooms within a mansion. Does the lead carpenter necessarily know/understand the minutia? Can the carpenters all say with certainty that the work went exactly as planned?

Look at it from that angle and then add in a heavier dose of complexity and a few elements (ie: player reaction, player choice) that aren't necessarily within the control of developers.

While I agree that Eldil came across as incredibly arrogant, especially when he made a few blatant and, to use his expression, amateurish mistakes himself, I agree with Volios that developers aren't always right just because they're developers.

If you'd like, you can also look at the dynamic between engineers and architects—only, in this case, it's as though the developers are some sort of weird hybrid of architect and engineer and we're some hybrid of engineer and user.
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01/30/2013 02:10 PMPosted by Elethia
While I agree that Eldil came across as incredibly arrogant, especially when he made a few blatant and, to use his expression, amateurish mistakes himself, I agree with Volios that developers aren't always right just because they're developers.


I submit. :p I admit I tend to think of things more in black/white ways rather than varying shades of grey. :P
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13150
01/30/2013 01:28 PMPosted by Elethia
Ahah! Well, wasn't sure so I figured it was worth a post. :)


I realized, after I posted it, of course, that it was going to cause trouble. But, yeah, I just meant broadly that all healers are there to prevent deaths in order to complete the encounter; an absorb is just one tool for the job, except it's become a thing that also happens to mess with encounters and other healers' ability to participate. Khendra's idea of triage absorbs addresses all of that (and if I have to get used to poh being party un-restricted and a poh DA that depends on crit in order to benefit from mastery [argh], and I do, I find myself warming to the idea of a smart poh crit DA that goes on a genuinely vulnerable player, rather than onto a full health, pre-shield-stacked one). PW:S outside of rapture effectively functions as one now anyway. Also, all of these threads have made me realize with fresh appreciation that my druid co-healer is incredibly easy to get along with given the state of things, which I would like to tell him without sounding weird and making us both uncomfortable, so I probably won't say anything.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
9925
Also keep in mind that the developers are working on the game 3-4 builds ahead of anything we see. So what might not make much sense now may make more sense when other aspects of their overall design come into play.

That's not to say they haven't done things just for the sake of the current build; by their nature that's what hotfixes are. But one of the reasons the designers hate doing a hotfix is because it's just as likely to be temporary for the sake of some numbers and they don't want people getting used to it if it's not going to work out right. It's an extreme gamble either way.
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