The state of Disc (Re: GC's PvE concerns)

90 Night Elf Priest
13490
01/30/2013 02:48 PMPosted by Alashe
which I would like to tell him without sounding weird and making us both uncomfortable, so I probably won't say anything.


Give him a big ol' hug and say "you're awesome"!
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13150
I think I'll just send him some int food. That's a healthy way of communicating, right?
Edited by Alashe on 1/30/2013 3:45 PM PST
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01/30/2013 11:34 AMPosted by Zamboozle
Unlinking mastery from SS is basically reducing the size of our 'spoon', which while I agree with the idea, I don't like the method...mostly because combined with DA unlinked to POH, mastery turns from a stat that 25 priests stack for POH/SS/DA blanketing to a stat we want to avoid alla gear is fuxxored.


This actually hits the nail on the head for one of my biggest concerns. After taking away the assured DA and separating SS from mastery, is our mastery going to be even worthwhile at that point? Or are we going to be chasing something like Crit chance to get that DA rolling as much as possible?

You'll have to excuse me if I sound slightly ignorant since this is the first time in a long time that I've played a priest (pretty much haven't touched this toon since Wrath) but the above is something I have been wondering since the changes were announced.

I was also surprised reading posts talking about whether or not atonement was optional. To me, it doesn't feel like it is. To do what I need to do I have to use atonement, I have to have AA going because of it's effects on everything else right now. I do remember when it didn't feel like such a core mechanic but now it definitely does. I do have to say that coming back it is a bit of an adjustment and at times it is hard to trust in atonement healing.

Personally, I would have perfered to see a longer cd on SS and a nerf to DA to put us more in line with other healers over what were looking at in 5.2. Then again, this is limited experience on my part in the newer content and it is interesting to read the opinions of those far more experienced on this class. All I can do basically is keep my fingers crossed and hope that the changes don't make us feel so gimpy that we're suddenly all expected to go Holy.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10625
This actually hits the nail on the head for one of my biggest concerns. After taking away the assured DA and separating SS from mastery, is our mastery going to be even worthwhile at that point? Or are we going to be chasing something like Crit chance to get that DA rolling as much as possible?

The change actualyl makes Crit a worse stat. Don't fight the changes; DA is going to go back to being a relatively small contribution to your healing. Spirit Shell, PWS, Atonement, and the heal from PoH are going to be your mainstays; Mastery/Haste builds are the way to go.
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01/30/2013 08:07 PMPosted by Kaels
This actually hits the nail on the head for one of my biggest concerns. After taking away the assured DA and separating SS from mastery, is our mastery going to be even worthwhile at that point? Or are we going to be chasing something like Crit chance to get that DA rolling as much as possible?

The change actualyl makes Crit a worse stat. Don't fight the changes; DA is going to go back to being a relatively small contribution to your healing. Spirit Shell, PWS, Atonement, and the heal from PoH are going to be your mainstays; Mastery/Haste builds are the way to go.


Reminds me of when I started this priest instead of where we are at now.

I'm not particularly trying to fight the changes, they just make me a bit nervous as I haven't even been back two weeks yet and I see them looming as I'm just getting comfortable with healing on a Priest at all.

Thank you for the advice. :)
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90 Pandaren Priest
12925
01/30/2013 08:07 PMPosted by Kaels
The change actualyl makes Crit a worse stat. Don't fight the changes; DA is going to go back to being a relatively small contribution to your healing. Spirit Shell, PWS, Atonement, and the heal from PoH are going to be your mainstays; Mastery/Haste builds are the way to go.


How do you figure? I don't see how the changes listed in the latest PTR changelog would change critical strike one way or the other. The only difference would be mastery becomes much weaker for PoH, negligible for SS and PW:S becomes cheaper.

My assumption is you're implying we will be shifting to a much heavier reliance on PW:S weaving, largely in part to abuse BT and PW:S in general, due to the cost reduction on the spell. Or.... gearing for specific haste break points for extra SS casts and then dumping the rest into mastery. Which... I could see working. But I still don't see how this means critical strike becomes weaker. Elaborate, I'm curious :).
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10625
The change actualyl makes Crit a worse stat. Don't fight the changes; DA is going to go back to being a relatively small contribution to your healing. Spirit Shell, PWS, Atonement, and the heal from PoH are going to be your mainstays; Mastery/Haste builds are the way to go.


How do you figure? I don't see how the changes listed in the latest PTR changelog would change critical strike one way or the other. The only difference would be mastery becomes much weaker for PoH, negligible for SS and PW:S becomes cheaper.

My assumption is you're implying we will be shifting to a much heavier reliance on PW:S weaving, largely in part to abuse BT and PW:S in general, due to the cost reduction on the spell. Or.... gearing for specific haste break points for extra SS casts and then dumping the rest into mastery. Which... I could see working. But I still don't see how this means critical strike becomes weaker. Elaborate, I'm curious :).

Well, basically, Crit is awesome now mostly because it means enormous DAs and scales your Spirit Shell multiplicatively with Mastery. Since the DAs can almost always be rolled until they're consumed, but don't usually reach the DA cap, that means the Crit/Mastery interaction of DA is highly valuable near-100%-effective healing.

When the auto-DA effect of PoH is removed, crit DAs will still happen, but they won't be rollable, which means they're basically equivalent to casting a PWS on a random raid member. And since PoH will only be cast after damage spikes, the ones from PoH be about as effective as casting PWS on a random raid member at a random time after an AoE goes out - i.e. not particularly useful. Crits from GHeal and Atonement will still get consumed at a decent rate, but on the whole, it's just not a great stat - marginally better than for most healers, but still mostly just a bunch of overhealing/overshielding.

Crit for Spirit Shell is interesting since it's the only stat that will make individual SS casts bigger, but point for point it's worth less in 5.2 because it's no longer multiplicative with Mastery.

Haste, however, has the potential to be quite strong for Spirit Shell, it's quite useful up to a point for getting a PWS blanket out, and it's about the only stat you can use to improve PoH. Mastery's value will depend on how much PWS you end up using, but with smart PWS preshielding, you should be able to get more than enough out of it to outweigh Crit's contribution.

(If your goal were just maximizing Spirit Shell, I suppose Crit/Haste would be th way to go, but then you've got gimpy PWSs the rest of the time so you have to lean hard on reactive healing with PoH and Atonement. That might be viable, but it's not really playing to your strengths on fights without damage multipliers. And you're definitely not doing it for the Divine Aegis.)
Edited by Kaels on 1/30/2013 11:38 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
12925
Well, basically, Crit is awesome now mostly because it means enormous DAs and scales your Spirit Shell multiplicatively with Mastery. Since the DAs can almost always be rolled until they're consumed, but don't usually reach the DA cap, that means the Crit/Mastery interaction of DA is highly valuable near-100%-effective healing.

When the auto-DA effect of PoH is removed, crit DAs will still happen, but they won't be rollable, which means they're basically equivalent to casting a PWS on a random raid member. And since PoH will only be cast after damage spikes, the ones from PoH be about as effective as casting PWS on a random raid member at a random time after an AoE goes out - i.e. not particularly useful. Crits from GHeal and Atonement will still get consumed at a decent rate, but on the whole, it's just not a great stat - marginally better than for most healers, but still mostly just a bunch of overhealing/overshielding.


Well yeah, I could see saying critical strike will be diminished for the reasons above. It's more a disagreement on semantics but an agreement on the end result. What I mean is the reason critical strike will be diminished isn't because of critical strike itself. It's because of DA and mastery.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
9925
I can still see crit being a viable stat simply for the Spirit Shell interaction; 10% effect difference in your 1 minute CD is a valuable contribution.

There's an alternative build that focuses on PW:S, Inner Focus PoH and Spirit Shell that stacks crit and mastery and focuses on prevention rather than healing. One can easily eschew haste as a majority of our toolkit doesn't use it; Penance, PW:S, PW:Solace, PoM, and the level 90 talents don't care much for haste if at all. Spirit Shell doesn't count it much either unless you're trying to squeeze in that extra cast. It really only matters for PoH (heal), GHeal, BHeal and Smite- those of our talents that are more about healing than absorption. Add to that the source of haste we can actively manage; Power Infusion, Borrowed Time, and you have a strong argument not to bother with haste at all.

It will be interesting to see how these pan out in raid play.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
9925
Let me follow that up by saying that it is certainly not ideal. In fact it's quite the opposite.

Mastery is only good for PW:S.
Crit is only good for Spirit Shell.
Haste is only good for spells which are only a secondary function of our spec and versions of which we have that are less than effective.

None of the secondary stats is going to be particularly useful or have a meaningful impact on our play, to the point where reforging at all will have a negligible impact on our output. Once again, just stack the stat which is most useful to your spell cycle, it is hard to get it wrong because it means so little.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17145
Khendra, that's exactly what I said to Kaels last night. It seems like after these changes, it might not matter much what your secondaries are at all - depending on how you play, I suppose.
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90 Human Priest
17065
Which means we should all go haste til first breakpoint, so we can interchange between holy and disc without having to regem/forge.

/nod nod

>_>
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9855
I, personally, still want to know more about the cake that was mention before
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Has anyone figured out the new formula for SS? I've been trying several combinations but it never seems to be the same as my SS numbers.

Also, I love how IF has become a permanent buff for my PoH on the PTR, and I'm hoping it never gets fixed! :p Plus, I still can't quite figure out if Blizzard actually intends to buff PW:S by 40%, as it wouldn't make sense to change the tooltip alone.
Edited by Ceddya on 1/31/2013 11:50 AM PST
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90 Human Priest
11345
01/31/2013 11:43 AMPosted by Ceddya
Has anyone figured out the new formula for SS? I've been trying several combinations but it never seems to be the same as my SS numbers.


On PTR the SS formula for PoH is:

(8689+0.838*spellpower)*[(1-crit%) + (crit%)*(2+(1+mastery%)*meta gem effect)]

This is true in the general case as well:

average non crit heal size * [(1-crit%) + (crit%)*(2+(1+mastery%)*meta gem effect)]
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90 Human Priest
11345
Basically it is the exact same size as the expected heal + aegis, but they messed up and only applied the metagem multiplier to the aegis portion of critical heals and not the entire crit heal.
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I have a question .... how have Disc priests been doing in Terrace? Because I tried Terrace on my disc priest and it was freaking painful. If Disco priests haven't been parsing well in Terrace, maybe it was partly Heart of Fear that made them crazy OP.

Absorb blanketing is what makes disc priest viable and more appealing. If we lose the ability to blanket people with absorbs then we will lose the identity of disc. Im not saying we dont do that too well. But i am saying that this is why people bring a disc priest.


Absorb blanketing makes Disc more than viable. You're right that this is why people bring a Disc priest, why they're thought of as invaluable for certain mechanics on progression. Which is exactly why they're getting adjusted. I think Khendra is right .... absorb blanketing is going away (or becoming much, much more limited.)

Given that a disc priest's "identity" has changed so much over the past two expansions ..... well. It's hard for me to take your statement that seriously.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10625
01/31/2013 09:51 AMPosted by Khendra
Penance, PW:S, PW:Solace, PoM, and the level 90 talents don't care much for haste if at all.

Explain. Keeping in mind that haste reduces the GCD by exactly the same percentage as it reduces the cast time of a casted spell.
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I have a question .... how have Disc priests been doing in Terrace? Because I tried Terrace on my disc priest and it was freaking painful. If Disco priests haven't been parsing well in Terrace, maybe it was partly Heart of Fear that made them crazy OP.


Terrace what? LFR? Normal? Heroic?

edit: I mean where were you having issues.
Edited by Morenn on 1/31/2013 1:10 PM PST
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
Just embrace crit.
-It makes your heals do 180-200% more raw healing/shielding.
-It powers SSh.
-It is the largest boost to Attonement healing and unlike haste, stacking it doesn't require spirit to offset.

Next tier is going to be full of aura stuff/frequent damage to counter the OPness of AoE healing spells + more gear regen anyways so those DA bubbles will almost always get popped.

Mathmatically, I can't see how (haste + spirit to offset increased spending) will possibly compete with crit for disc. Just don't spam PW:S more than rapture-required and it'll impact over 80% of your healing to give massive gains.
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