The state of Disc (Re: GC's PvE concerns)

90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
Agreed, Pitkanen. Especially with the Haste thing, you have to sacrifice so much Intellect to sustain a Haste build, aka absolutely useless in my opinion.
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90 Human Priest
11345
01/31/2013 12:52 PMPosted by Heartsings
I have a question .... how have Disc priests been doing in Terrace?


Disc dominates all of (heroic) terrace except for Tsulong day phase. We are great at sustained aoe healing (Protectors both normal and elite, Tsulong night phase) and on fights with a damage modifier (Lei Shi). There's nothing to heal until the last 2 minutes of Sha, however the added dps disc brings will cause you to have one less add wave, making the fight easier.

01/31/2013 12:59 PMPosted by Kaels
Explain. Keeping in mind that haste reduces the GCD by exactly the same percentage as it reduces the cast time of a casted spell.


Haste lowers the cast time or gcd for short cd heals but doesn't let you cast them more frequently. What you get out of haste is more "filler" spells, not more of your best spells.

01/31/2013 01:13 PMPosted by Pitkanen
Just embrace crit.


Crit is looking like the best non-spirit secondary for 5.2, although some scenarios will potentially favor haste. It is likely that 5.2 gearing will be more about avoiding mastery than anything else.
Edited by Amabella on 1/31/2013 1:43 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
9925
01/31/2013 12:59 PMPosted by Kaels
Penance, PW:S, PW:Solace, PoM, and the level 90 talents don't care much for haste if at all.

Explain. Keeping in mind that haste reduces the GCD by exactly the same percentage as it reduces the cast time of a casted spell.


Pardon Kaels; let me reword the structure.

Haste from gear at the current levels will not meaningfully impact the output of the majority of our instant-cast tools any more than the benefit they would gain from any other secondary stat.

Of course instant-cast spells benefit directly from GCD reduction just the same as any other cast spells. That's why haste is never going to be truly useless, why Borrowed Time is still an important part of the spec regardless of if people know how to take advantage of it or not. However, haste as a function of GCD is also a very dangerous improvement to claim considering how much of it is based in client hardware, network latency and applicable opportunity of use in a real environment; great on paper but nearly infinitesimal in practice. We are not DKs, we are casters, and opportunity casters at that.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12465
01/31/2013 01:34 PMPosted by Amabella
Haste lowers the cast time or gcd for short cd heals but doesn't let you cast them more frequently. What you get out of haste is more "filler" spells, not more of your best spells.


This isn't even really true, either. Mathematically true, yes, but how often do you actually realize these extra spellcasts?

Riôt
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17255
01/31/2013 01:34 PMPosted by Amabella
It is likely that 5.2 gearing will be more about avoiding mastery than anything else.


You won't be casting more PW: shields?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10645
Of course instant-cast spells benefit directly from GCD reduction just the same as any other cast spells. That's why haste is never going to be truly useless, why Borrowed Time is still an important part of the spec regardless of if people know how to take advantage of it or not. However, haste as a function of GCD is also a very dangerous improvement to claim considering how much of it is based in client hardware, network latency and applicable opportunity of use in a real environment; great on paper but nearly infinitesimal in practice. We are not DKs, we are casters, and opportunity casters at that.

But the spell queuing mechanism introduced in Cata eliminates the effect of latency for chain-casting (e.g. spamming out bubbles before an AoE).

In a 25m, just 10% haste (going from 20% baseline BT+raidbuff to 30% BT+raidbuff+gear) makes the difference between being able to get out 11 bubbles before they start expiring and being able to do 12.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17255
01/31/2013 02:29 PMPosted by Kaels
makes the difference between being able to get out 11 bubbles before they start expiring and being able to do 12


Who does that?
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90 Human Priest
11345
01/31/2013 02:18 PMPosted by Taymage
You won't be casting more PW: shields?


Unless there are further changes it looks like I'll be using PW:S for the same thing I do on live: rapture and emergencies.

Post 5.2, mastery is just far too weak for everything other than PW:S, and PW:S will not make up enough of your healing for you to want mastery (it's too inefficient). It's the same way as non-PoH / spirit shell heals are now, but on live this weakness is offset by the strength of mastery for SS and PoH auto-DA.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
01/31/2013 02:18 PMPosted by Taymage
You won't be casting more PW: shields?


Nope. Maybe will feel less bad if I have to use it in a clutch scenario, but I won't be "blanketing" PW:S unless 100% necessary.
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90 Human Priest
11345
This isn't even really true, either. Mathematically true, yes, but how often do you actually realize these extra spellcasts?

Riôt


Well, if you aren't getting extra spell casts haste is even worse.

Whether you actually get extra casts off depends on how much haste you are gaining. I'm sure noone would dispute the fact that you get extra casts off under heroism / lust.
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Terrace what? LFR? Normal? Heroic?

edit: I mean where were you having issues.


This was LFR Terrace, which is why I phrased it as a question, since I don't know !@#$. I just know I felt like a fish out of water. I couldn't get Rapture procs at all on Tsulong, both phases, and Lei Shi threw me for a loop.

Point is, Terrace felt like a place that catered more to holy priests (or at least didn't play into Disc's strengths). And apparently disc priests are still roflstomping there.
Edited by Heartsings on 1/31/2013 2:45 PM PST
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90 Human Priest
11345
There's often not enough damage going out in lfr to get consistent raptures. I'd expect you can at least throw shields on the tank or on players debuffed by a fight mechanic (shield the debuff on Tsulong instead of dispelling it). I'm not really sure though, because all I usually do in lfr is spam damage.

It's also useful to remember that you won't really see how ridiculous disc is until your gear is quite good (I'm assuming your priest has equal or worse gear than the druid you are posting on).
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90 Blood Elf Priest
9925
But the spell queuing mechanism introduced in Cata eliminates the effect of latency for chain-casting (e.g. spamming out bubbles before an AoE).

In a 25m, just 10% haste (going from 20% baseline BT+raidbuff to 30% BT+raidbuff+gear) makes the difference between being able to get out 11 bubbles before they start expiring and being able to do 12.


Granted, but again, that's a theoretical. We should not ever be in a position where it is desirable to gain the benefit of 11-12 instant casts in a row. In practical scenarios we would not have the opportunity, nor the desire, to realize the benefits of GCD reduction. Half of our spells are still cast-time spells, and the "always be casting" model died at the end of Wrath. We still need to be smart about our spell selection and timing.

So while I agree in principal with what you're saying, I doubt it means much in practice. Do you see where I'm going with that?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10645
01/31/2013 02:38 PMPosted by Taymage
makes the difference between being able to get out 11 bubbles before they start expiring and being able to do 12


Who does that?

You could also read that as "10 bubbles, a PoM, and a Holy Fire to keep Eva up." Which would be completely realistic for a disc priest going into a damage burst with Spirit Shell down.
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01/31/2013 02:49 PMPosted by Amabella
It's also useful to remember that you won't really see how ridiculous disc is until your gear is quite good (I'm assuming your priest has equal or worse gear than the druid you are posting on).


My priest actually has slightly better gear (because my druid has two sets of gear to maintain/upgrade) and I still felt pretty crazy powerful in MV and HOF.

On the topic of stats ...... Disc has never had a really solid stat priority to begin with. Haste has the benefit of actually affecting all of our spells in a reliable, somewhat meaningful way.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10645
01/31/2013 02:51 PMPosted by Khendra
the "always be casting" model died at the end of Wrath.

Actually, I recall it being revived in Cata partway through normal Firelands and not dying again until MoP launch. It seems to be an enduring feature of Disc, which only hibernates a little bit in the first tier of each expansion before reappearing with a vengeance.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17255
Well, if you were going to spam that many bubbles you might want to be focusing on Mastery over Haste maybe. I still can't imagine a single person attempting to heal that way.
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90 Human Priest
11345
Terrace definitely has less "hey guys I'm about to hit you with a big burst of damage better get ready" moments; so in that sense disc is less ridiculous than it is in HoF.

It's still very strong though.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
The always be casting model has never died. If you're not casting any spells you've made a huge mistake.
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Anytime you're not healing, though, you're likely casting an Atonement spell. While ABC isn't totally accurate, it's pretty rare that you're not casting something.
Edited by Heartsings on 1/31/2013 3:12 PM PST
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