Paladins: What the heck Blizzard

90 Human Death Knight
8875
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-yn3twvgfqph1612v/details/5/?s=8069&e=8281

This is the result of tanking Heroic Wind Lord with DPS gear. He destroyed the healing meters (because seal of insight's design is based on AP - this is absurd), and completely obliterated the damage meters by amounts that are practically exploits.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Heart_of_Fear/Wind_Lord_Mel'jarak/10H/dps/

Are you even aware of this? I myself am amazed that I see nothing talked about this in 5.2 notes. (And these are AFTER the hotfix placing a cap on vengeance)
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1 Draenei Paladin
0
200k+ Vengeance + 600% damage debuff on the boss. I'm pretty sure I've seen Monk tanks hit harder than that too on the same fight.
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94 Pandaren Warrior
16150
01/29/2013 11:02 PMPosted by Chaingirl
Are you even aware of this?


Yes.

Thats why they changed seal of insight like a month ago.

specifically because of wind lord.
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100 Dwarf Warrior
19980
You see the 2M eDPS from a pally last week? Good times.

It's one fight. It's a lot of fun. Doesn't hurt anyone.
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You see the 2M eDPS from a pally last week? Good times.

It's one fight. It's a lot of fun. Doesn't hurt anyone.

Unless you're the tank that gets benched from it.

That just tells guilds working on that fight to "replace your current tank with a pally".
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100 Human Paladin
17840
You see the 2M eDPS from a pally last week? Good times.

It's one fight. It's a lot of fun. Doesn't hurt anyone.

Unless you're the tank that gets benched from it.

That just tells guilds working on that fight to "replace your current tank with a pally".


Really? I thought it was like every other one tank fight. You don't bench the other tank unless they suck at their dps spec yes?
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100 Dwarf Warrior
19980
It's the same deal when going from a three tank fight to a two tank fight. Or 7 healers to 6 or 3 to 2. Or just being a DPS. Sometimes you sit for your guild to succeed. That's not asking much. Just hop in next week.

Or... be remotely decent at your offspec and rock out!
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It's the same deal when going from a three tank fight to a two tank fight. Or 7 healers to 6 or 3 to 2. Or just being a DPS. Sometimes you sit for your guild to succeed. That's not asking much. Just hop in next week.

Or... be remotely decent at your offspec and rock out!

It's actually not the same.

When a raid drops from 3 tanks to 2 or 2 tanks to 1, ideally they'll have the tank with the best offspec to go dps. That way if you have a lot of plate or leather drop, you can chose the tank to dps based on that.

But instead, we have two tank classes excelling at the fight to the point that you have guilds making decisions on who goes dps/benched based on the class they're playing and if the tank is unlucky to not get a dps set because there isn't enough loot to go around, they just get benched.

While you two may not see it as a problem as both of your classes are at the top of said fight, it is a problem when tanks tend to be the top damage dealer on that fight and the difference between tanks can be as much as an entire another dps player or more.
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On H Mel'jarak in particular, sometimes it's actually better to stop DPS and wait for him to Rain of Blades before you push a Recklessness, so raw DPS output isn't as crazy important as you're making it out to be. Whether you sit a tank or have them do DPS won't make or break you, nor will your choice of tank class to use.
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90 Pandaren Monk
15630
It's the same deal when going from a three tank fight to a two tank fight. Or 7 healers to 6 or 3 to 2. Or just being a DPS. Sometimes you sit for your guild to succeed. That's not asking much. Just hop in next week.

Or... be remotely decent at your offspec and rock out!

It's actually not the same.

When a raid drops from 3 tanks to 2 or 2 tanks to 1, ideally they'll have the tank with the best offspec to go dps. That way if you have a lot of plate or leather drop, you can chose the tank to dps based on that.

But instead, we have two tank classes excelling at the fight to the point that you have guilds making decisions on who goes dps/benched based on the class they're playing and if the tank is unlucky to not get a dps set because there isn't enough loot to go around, they just get benched.

While you two may not see it as a problem as both of your classes are at the top of said fight, it is a problem when tanks tend to be the top damage dealer on that fight and the difference between tanks can be as much as an entire another dps player or more.


yes .. it is the same. It's heroic. You are always going to pick the best comp available within your raid (unless you are .. you know .. dumb).

This fight we have our pally tank because I have by far the most OP aoe as dps from all of us 3 (dk, pally, monk). So it's a better dps gain if I go dps compared to him going ret.

On heroic spirit kings the pally goes dps because I can cheese the fight as a monk tank and soak the 1st boss cleave by myself.

On H vizier the DK goes dps because me and the pally are better to tank that fight.

On Lei shi the pally goes dps because me and the DK have better tools for that fight.

Welcome to heroic raiding .. you use the best comp available. It's been like that since .. forever.

And fights that require less tanks than usual, usually are not tunned to be dps checks. This is one of them. Our DK is spamming icy touch to dispel quickening from the boss, and we still beat the boss with minutes spare on the enrage timer.

You are making a drama about 1 fight in the most balanced tier we had so far. This is the only tier I can recall that all tanks are getting equivalent moments to shine. You pick tanks based on minor details, but every fight is perfectly doable with all tanks.

It's not remotely close to situations we had until this point.

Or you were not around during Firelands were DKs were benched every fight, or Dragon Soul were DKs were better at every single fight? Or maybe wotlk where paladins dominated ICC and warriors were left in the dust? Or perhaps Ulduar that DKs were gods, and nobody in their right mind allowed paladins to tank fights over any other tank?
Edited by Leeflow on 1/30/2013 4:59 AM PST
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100 Human Paladin
17840

This fight we have our pally tank because I have by far the most OP aoe as dps from all of us 3 (dk, pally, monk). So it's a better dps gain if I go dps compared to him going ret.


Surprisingly enough I would rather have a ret than a dps monk for that fight. The important part of the burst you can put out on the boss while he has recklessness. Ret does very very well at that, and ret's aoe isn't the worst.

That being said, I tank and our monk tank does dps for wind lord. He usually comes in bottom of the meters and we do perfectly fine on that fight regardless. It's really not a fight where you have to stack your raid at all. It really isn't. The monk above me is right about that.

I can't say too much for other fights. I generally go dps for spirit kings and have our monk tank, but we have no other tanks we can bring. We're a raid without a bench or many (if any) alts that are able to jump in.
Edited by Perseus on 1/30/2013 5:40 AM PST
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90 Human Warrior
3385
I've only done it 10 man normal so far, but I destroyed the DPS meters and out healed the healers (with my absorb).

On Heroic it's supposed to be even more crazy.
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90 Pandaren Monk
15630

This fight we have our pally tank because I have by far the most OP aoe as dps from all of us 3 (dk, pally, monk). So it's a better dps gain if I go dps compared to him going ret.


Surprisingly enough I would rather have a ret than a dps monk for that fight. The important part of the burst you can put out on the boss while he has recklessness. Ret does very very well at that, and ret's aoe isn't the worst.

That being said, I tank and our monk tank does dps for wind lord. He usually comes in bottom of the meters and we do perfectly fine on that fight regardless. It's really not a fight where you have to stack your raid at all. It really isn't. The monk above me is right about that.

I can't say too much for other fights. I generally go dps for spirit kings and have our monk tank, but we have no other tanks we can bring. We're a raid without a bench or many (if any) alts that are able to jump in.


monks can put out a very high burst dmg during the burn phase because of how our cooldowns line up. Xuen + tigereye brew fully stacked + lust and ww dmg is quite high. It might be lower than ret's (which I honestly havent seen a good ret pally in ages, so I wouldn't be able to compare) .. and considering that WW aoe dmg is just ridiculously powerfull now, it evens out.

that being said, the point is that paladins are not "mandatory" for that fight, like some people are QQing about. They are slightly ahead of other tanks because of their AP modifiers being better (which in theory is being fixed in 5.2) ... but that's about it .. we did attempts with me tanking, with the warrior tanking. The difference was not a big deal. We decided for the pally because he had the worst dps output as a dpser.

This lvl of "advantage" doesn't come even closer to examples we had in wotlk and cata.

People complaining about that, considering windlord is one of the easiest hard modes of this tier, is just lol.
Edited by Leeflow on 1/30/2013 6:21 AM PST
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90 Worgen Warrior
8385
I think all this whining would be valid if this was not the easiest heroic fight in Heroic Heart of Fear and Terrace.
Edited by Botenanna on 1/30/2013 9:32 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
14865
You see the 2M eDPS from a pally last week? Good times.

It's one fight. It's a lot of fun. Doesn't hurt anyone.

Unless you're the tank that gets benched from it.

That just tells guilds working on that fight to "replace your current tank with a pally".


My former tank wanted to use a warrior and bench my paladin, mostly one of the reasons that is now my former guild. also the tank was the GM and therefore had to "tank all the things no question"
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8295
Stupid complaint to be whining about here.

Monks single tank it, DK's single tank it, warriors single tank, pallies single tank it.

Have you ever done Wind Lord on Heroic? A DK's Death Strike Healing can = as much self healing as a Pally can put out, same with a brewmasters.

Its not like pally tanks are the only ones to kill that boss.

Quit QQ'ing about what makes Pally tanks unique.

Hater's gunna hate, you don't like us? then roll one and shut up.
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100 Tauren Druid
14520
01/30/2013 03:16 PMPosted by Protroàst
what makes Pally tanks unique.

Dealing excessive damage at high vengeance is what makes pally tanks unique?
At least I was fortunate enough to have a garbage DPS co-tank, so even being the OP class he'd probably do like 3-400k or likewise terrible.

Although I'm wondering whether it's more just Pally scaling or the fact that they actually benefit from bloodlust significantly (+AW+HA).
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90 Human Paladin
10930
I'm trying to figure out what he did to get numbers like that. I tanked it in full dps gear last week and did just shy of 800k, though I forgot to switch in Glyph of Alabaster Shield (forgot why I had it out, probably Lei Shi) which could've brought me well over 850k, but still not close to 1.2 million.
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01/30/2013 03:43 PMPosted by Sliphe
I'm trying to figure out what he did to get numbers like that. I tanked it in full dps gear last week and did just shy of 800k, though I forgot to switch in Glyph of Alabaster Shield (forgot why I had it out, probably Lei Shi) which could've brought me well over 850k, but still not close to 1.2 million.

Fight duration. The raid killed it short enough after the tank used their CDs to burn the boss to keep their dps from being diluted.

Part of the issue I see causing paladins doing this is having stackable cooldowns for +56% damage delt for 18 seconds. Combined with heroism and shattering blow would really drive their damage up.
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90 Worgen Warrior
5225

Unless you're the tank that gets benched from it.

That just tells guilds working on that fight to "replace your current tank with a pally".


Really? I thought it was like every other one tank fight. You don't bench the other tank unless they suck at their dps spec yes?


Wait...that's a one tank fight?
Granted, I'm referring to my own experiences in LFR, but usually, me and the other tank either tug-of-war agro between the adds and boss (successfully/not wiping the group), or one tanks the boss while the other tanks the adds.
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